SeaMonkey

Both of you are making logical arguments. All things being relative you are right A234, but since the scale of the oceans vs land is skewed allowances have to be made. And as ebitt presents the time scale vs APs is off also making it a diificult thing to model correctly. I'll present another facet, if the APs of subs are diminshed too much they will have a difficult time escaping even in silent mode. Enough destroyers on one semi circle and the other flank land, subs are easily round up and slaughtered in the corral. I'd be interested in a show of hands of how many players have prosecuted a successful sub campaign, or been the victim of one.

That be what I'm waiting for!

In hindsight I would go with SC2 WaW, more features, most of the mods from SC2 have been adapted, just more bang for your buck. They say the AI for WaW is quite good also, if that's your forte'. No doubt the human opponent versions are outstanding, although some of the customs need play balancing, excepting maybe Bill's(pzgndr) ATR variant, but you can always play a mirror.

So I'm assuming your OK with the risk vs reward WaW presents for Sealion prosecution?

Excellent perspective A234!

Hey Retri, I'm working on it. Map is done, and its big, from Tripoli to the Suez, north to Sicily and Crete, Malta is in there too. OOBs are done. Convoys scripts are done, working on reinforcement schedules. I'll have to do the weather layer. Currently reading "The Eighth Army" to tweak arrival times, the Axis were easy. Two week turns and some of the German Recce units have 50 AP, all air and armor, have double strikes, course all this may change after playtesting. There are extensive naval and air units and players will have the ability to assault(airborne&amphib) Malta if they wish. Axis can stand off and bomb/raid also, but remember Malta is a fortress, you make the choices, what elevation of casualties can you stand. I'm trying to model the logistics so that if you, as Axis, cannot protect the many convoy lanes, your MPP production will drop to almost nil. UK has a convoy route from Alexandria to Valletta that the Axis can interdict, but that will have marginal effect on their MPPs. The big deal will be can the German and Italian naval and air assets keep the RN from devastating the Axis supply lines from the Resource centers across the Eastern Med to Tripoli. Hoping to get the Malta features right so that the additional Hurricanes and Spits from Carrier convoys coming in from west are delayed if Valletta efficiency is bombed/bombarded to less than 50%. There's a lot to consider and I'm not sure what trade-offs will have to be made to get the simulation correct. A daunting task with my very limited time resources.

Maybe I better define my "camp". I like long competitive games for PBEM and shorter operational variants tourneys and AI versions. For this discussion I'm on board with WaW Fall Weiss with UK capital fallback to Canada, in other words they never surrender. This is the majority of my human opponent games. Here's my historical orientation, Stalin being a communist dictator was very distrustful of everyone, especially capitalistic and fascist regimes, read UK,USA, and Germany. Any situation that causes one or more's demise is favorable from his point of view, IMO. Germany's original intent with the non-aggression treaty was to secure its eastern interests so that it may pursue conflict with the west, obviously Hitler lost sight of that on the way, but since we're role playing we don't have to make that bad decision. In my mind, dictated by my game experience, with the above options, Sealion is only viable if the UK embarks upon aggressive acts abroad. There is no chance, I repeat, no chance of a successful Sealion if UK stays at home and does not over commit to other theaters. That is for the Axis player to decipher and the Allied player to obscure. So all I'm saying, with the above conditions met, is that depending on the losses sustained in Sealion the USSR should have an option of DoWing the Axis as was their plan eventually and Germany should also have a like option available as historical. This would culminate in an H-hour countdown to war with the uncertainity of who would blink first, knowing that later the Western Allies would again enter the fray in the eastern hemisphere.

No doubt a good point Minty. But if we're going to pursue the "what if" that Sealion presents then there should be the option of an additional delay for USSR entry. In the world of conjecture, the "what if" environment of SC2 should allow the USSR an option of DoW ing the Axis after a certain date and not be compelled to enter due to a ramping up USSR readiness as an effect of Sealion. In an historical context I believe the USSR wouldn't be alarmed to the degree SC models for entry, but actually may take some relief of the fact that they would be allowed to extend their neutral time period due to Sealion. Now the dilemma that Germany faces is what strategies USSR may follow and would they exercise the option of DoW at a most inopportune moment for them in light of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The only question in my mind is when the option for USSR to exercise its DoW feature should be available in game time, of course with the % variables plus or minus gameturns. Perhaps at some readiness level the option is enacted. Now the USSR has some control over their entry and not subject to German actions exclusively.

Glad to see my post had the desired effect, good mental exercise. Confusion sometimes yields a greater effort of focus.

Excellent suggestion Minty, all the elements are there and obviously the balancing parameter just takes a little...well perhaps a bit more ....of playtesting. So get to work!

I've noticed exactly the same thing, a successful Sealion really doesn't have the game impact you would expect historically. Being highly risky as well as costly, not to mention the consequence of a declawed Barbarossa, Sealion reward seems to be insignificant as a game strategy, no matter which capital is chosen for the alternative Manchester loss. Someone prove us wrong....please!

There are certain Mods that may not work on SC2 1.08 if they were developed on WaW or PDE and vice versa. The editor evolves with each new edition, sometimes with a patch, but don't be discouraged, its only getting better and many of the custom mods will be ported to the new expansions. This is a resilient community with strong infrastructure(Hubert Cater). But you already knew that.

Puni......don't be poking your unworthiness into places where you're outgunned ;-). Seriously though, the features endowed by WaW dictate making a more operational game scale, like your Barbarossa campaign. Even that scenario is a bit large for fast tourney action to conclusion. Like my suggestion, BotB would be pretty quick, just one problem ....the naval and air aspects are left out and we would like to include those features into the campaign to test the players skill. Its a give and take thing, the engine will have some limitations, otoh, it has features that wouldn't be relevant also, as stated, diplomacy,upgrades, research, etc. On my expedition I arrived at what I believe is the best course of action and also one of my favorite board games, PanzerArmee Afrika. Of course an expansion to the naval and air aspects of the campaign were in order to include an actual Malta variant the players could pursue. All this in the context of what was an historical two year event, March 1941(arrival of AK) to Op Torch landings(Nov 1942). So with that in mind, the task has been implemented.

Sorry reiver, I don't believe you can attach strike range to tech upgrades for these units. The tech upgrades(characteristics) are hard coded, you can cap them and adjust cost of, but other than that you can't link them to a different feature....yet. Would be nice to have at least one totally moddable unit for air, sea and land.

CSS...post some screenshots.

So does that mean that you, as the defender is in the tile that the river flows in or behind the tile that contains the river? Or does it work when the attacker is occupying the river tile? What about attacking down or up the same river where the attacker and the defender both occupy adjacent river tiles of the same river? Further....if an enemy attacking unit has a friendly unit on the defender side of the river that has already attacked the defender from a clear tile, shouldn't the following attack by the river occupying attacker not suffer quite as much penalty, simulating a diversionary effort? Are we all confused yet?

Yepper, everything seems normal......of course...there's an exception, since my last visit wasn't December 31, 1969 at 11 PM. Let's see, nearest I can recollect, I was probably at a party in Sulphur ,LA celebrating the coming New Year(a senior in HS). Been drinking Vodka Collins that night, LA drinking age was 18. Ran out of vodka and turned to beer...bad idea. Did some bounce offs on the local backyard trampoline, remember arriving into a rose bush once or twice....never felt a thing. On the way out looking towards my cousin's(Mack) trailer, a RV they had parked outside the house, where we always resided so as not to disturb anyone with our late arrivals, I started feeling a bit squeamish. Needless to say, it all came up...what a fricken mess....never felt a thing, olfactories weren't working either. First time to ever get sick from over indulgence....only happened one other time in my life...a wedding that had a champaigne fountain, But that's another story.

Its not technical know how A234, but thanks for the plug, its just a little vein of common sense, and I didn't sleep in English class. Nothing that any human of this planet isn't capable of, I put my pants on one leg at a time. :confused:

A perfect example of why new mod campaigns benefit from a community development perspective. Get your teams together, and have at it.

Oh.. and Hubert, I noticed that sometimes my subs don't pass through CAs and BBs when running silent just lately. Is that a design decision, is it a percentage, cause I seem to remember I tested it when WaW first came out and it worked. Is it dependent on ASW tech application to capital ships?

See what happens when you jump to conclusions Blashy! They can dive, run silent, not to mention the editable parts of causing greater convoy damage, dive percentages, etc. :cool: My statement was well thought out, contemplated, tested, and arrived at by irrefutable evidence following the Scientific Method.

But you're going to fix that....right.....Hubert?

I think you are right IR. Two rolls of the dice at the current odds for each individual diplomatic investment vs Axis, Western Allies and USSR. Its somewhat of an advantage replicating a rather loose historical entwinement of Allied collusion, yet gives the Axis a chance of neutralizing. Seems fair and accurate.

No waves here, so I'm headin down south for a couple of weeks...to surf and to ponder. I wanted to leave the forum with an inquisition. We like tourney play ...right? It seems though, that SC campaigns from the beginning, encompassing the whole of WW2, take awhile to play. Not taking anything away from them, but how about a short, like twenty turns each side, wiz bam, thank you mam scenario. Makes for shorter AARs also. The tournament sure would move along quickly, no diplomacy, no research, no upgrades, something like the Battle of the Bulge, just gut wrenching action, stem to stern. Any suggestions?

Sure it would, it just has an extra neutron in the nucleus, otherwise known as an isotope. Although, I don't think I would make it a habit, no telling what might happen. Probably have a weight gain and have to go on a diet of "light water". See that extra neutron is like a catalyst to continue and enhance the U235 splitting making for a more rapid and continuous release of energy, so its desirable. But I believe later they decided this was the incorrect path to follow. Course I could be off on this, nuclear physics is really not my forte', organics is, like making gasoline or other hydrocarbon based fuels.