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rocketman: confirmed. Statisoris: agreed - but there may be hidden code issues with sharing? Shrug. Report sent. Ken out.

I have a nagging suspicion that you may be onto something... I'll run a quick test or two. (I'll give a scout team thousands of rounds of ammo from a truck. I'll get a machinegun team to run out of ammo. The scouts will give their lives for this test. What price knowledge? Next, I'll run it again but with a rifle squad rather than a machinegun team (linked vs. loose ammo).) Ken

This all seems to hinge on being out of command.

Here's a recent thread highlighting what I mentioned: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=102593

Vark, I started with CMBO. I was stunned. CMBB was the beast that I'd dreamed about since I was a wee lad holding a Panzerblitz box in my hand. CMAK was the required purchase to feed the compleatist in me. When CMSF came out, it was a radical departure from the modeling in CMBO/BB/AK. I had far less interest in modern warfare than in Eastern Front WWII. I purchased CMSF because, well, I wanted to see what BF.C would produce. I have never played CMBO/BB/AK since. And I'm happy with that. CMBN is the next evolution. I have rarely played CMSF since CMBN has been on my hard drive. If you like to play battalion and higher, then squad-sized "counters" are the scale that would probably work best. That'd be CMBO/BB/AK. But, if you like battalion and smaller, then CMBN is where it's at! The key to the one-to-one modeling is the instant replay. I zoom around the battle and see so many incredibly detailed actions occurring in every 60 second turn, it is hard to describe. In fact, I won't try. If you don't zoom in and watch your guys, then you're missing most of what makes CMBN so great. It's up to you to decide which game matches your style of play. The demo's free. Give it a shot once you get your new rig. I hope you like it. Ken

Because it's not .01 better...it's .09 better!

C'mon, you guys are ignoring the best one: The Guns of Navarone set! Now THAT was a good Christmas. 3 levels, movable guns, elevator, and gobs of tanks to rush out of the gararge door. You know, I had NO idea those were Panthers. As well, for a long time I thought the MG42'ers were carrying crutches over their shoulders, so I thought they were medics. It didn't help them.

Zetterling, "Normandy 1944", p. 277 states that each of the 3 regimental PaK companies (14./914, 915, 916) had 3 7.5cm PaK 40's apiece. The divisional anti-tank battlalion (Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 352) is stated to have: 14 Marder 38 10 StuG III 9 3.7cm Motorized FlaK The divisional TO&E diagram shows the abteilung to have 3 companies: 1. Pak(sf), 2. StuG, 3. Flak. It would seem the 14 Marder 38's would belong to the 1. Pak (sf). These sources align very closely. Nomenclature differences account for "Marder 38" vice "s.PaK (Sfl.)".

That was great! I don't see a problem. The German saw the enemy: he decided to kill the enemy: the enemy died. Mission accomplished!

Cool. Thanks for the report... Ken

Baneman, Good screenies. This is an issue of which BF.C is aware. It is frustrating when it happens. It breaks immersion. Thanks for digging into your files; the more examples of this that are found, the easier the troubleshooting is. If you have the savegames (which I assume you do because you posted these screenshots), please hold onto them. I'll forward this to BF.C as an example of this issue. They may want to look at the files. Thanks, Ken Ken

Karabekien, Sharp eye. Thanks for the heads up.

J.A. (RdH) My guess is that it will be longer than 72 hours from....NOW.

Well, I've asked some pretty specific questions and not gotten any answers. That doesn't help track anything down. Bugs? Kill 'em! But, are you SURE it's a bug? Should a tank fire AP or HE at a halftrack? How about at SPA? What about open-topped SPG's? How about enemy armored cars? What about trucks? What about thinly armored enemy tanks? It's a progression. Of sorts. If AP were the only ammunition used against each of those targets, players would rightfully scream. A solid penetrator AP or AP with explosive filler? Or, as has happened here, HE? The goal is to find where the progression doesn't work. The AI is programmed to choose the "right" ammunition. The best ammunition against a halftrack is NOT the best ammunition against a tank. Usually. So.... What ranges? (I guess 25m and 50m based on implicit/explicit statements above.) What SPECIFIC German gun? (Muzzle energy matters. If not to you, then to the AI.) What SPECIFIC Sherman? (Armor thickness, cast/rolled, angle, all matter.) What target aspect? Where is the firing unit in relation to the target? (Glancing impact angle or directly to the side?) Etc., etc. Before you say "this is wrong!", you need to define which "this" is "this". Hence, a bit of testing, first. So, toss out a bit of info so this beta guy can use this as an excuse to duck out of some home chores. Ken

Well, there is an unofficial eye on this thread. Keep it going... Ken

Okay, I've gathered that this has occurred at two close ranges: 25m and 50m. It seems both (?) times this has been seen it's been a German 75mm firing at a Sherman. What type of German 75mm? (Which "L"?) What type of Sherman?

Any savegames showing this?

Oft posted about. The game uses a schrodinger gun. The gun is loaded when the game starts and is reloaded, as soon as the unit can, after each shot. The ammo loaded is NOT specified. The ammo type is determined at the moment of firing. This gets around all sorts of ugliness. Search for the extensive threads on this topic. Regarding this specific instance, I have no idea if firing HE at that target - in those specific set of circumstances - was a good idea or not. As noted, HE shells could penetrate quite well at certain ranges with catastrophic results. Then again, they could be harmless. The TC sticking up may've contributed to the choice of ammo. What was the range? Specific vehicle models? Ken

That last part, "They aren't "out of C2", they just don't happen to be able to see the commander for a moment...": how do they know the commander didn't skedaddle? "You know, Sgt. Johnson's been on our case ever since the landing. It'd be just like him to put us out here to die while everyone else pulls out. Where the hell did that SOB go?" If they are out of C2 - radio, LOS, voice - they are out of C2. I understand what you're saying. The distant visual or voice c2 link would be something to look for as you're setting up the defensive position. The ability to stay and fight would be more, to me, based on morale. I don't know if a unit is affected by friendlies, in their unit or not, firing near them. (Meaning that they would KNOW that a friendly is there, based on their firing. Otherwise, simply LOS to a friendly.) A simple test suggests itself: setup a unit, out of C2, and have friendlies around it. Do the same without friendlies. How well does it stand up to the enemy? (The tricky part would be trying to make the enemy actions equivalent.) Will a unit fight better (keep their morale) in the presence of friendlies?

What you present is a situation where a sub-unit has been subordinated to another unit, but the sub-unit's C2 chain has not been adjusted to reflect the new C2. That's a very different situation.

I see your point, but my perspective is different. If a defensive position is set up in isolation (no C2), then that position will be less reactive. The game portrays that very well. They get no intel, their morale is a bit more brittle (all else being the same), etc. Isolated men don't fight as well as men in solid command. My .02. Ken

Hmmm.... How big is the savegame? Ken

DR = German?

I still have vivid memories of 2 squads in halftracks being wiped out by a 60mm mortar which dropped rounds into each of the passenger compartments. That was not pretty. The range was about 150m. It took just a few rounds to nail each halftrack. (That's my memory talking, not necessarily accurate.) The term "rage quit" suddenly had a visceral meaning to me.

Furinkazan, As someone who's done a LOT of testing for accuracy, let me make a recommendation. 1. If you want to compare accuracy between Panther and Sherman, you need to use the same target. Having a Sherman fire at a Panther, and a Panther fire at a Sherman, only gives apple to orange comparison. (You can change which side is the enemy by going into the "Mission" drop-down menu in the editor.) 2. Ensure the tanks have identical "soft" factors. 3. To facilitate getting a statistically meaningful number of tests, I've found running 20 test lanes at a time to be useful. Regardless, doing it one at a time can eat up a few days. Days which aren't used to PLAY are days that are lost forever. Ken