Zonks54 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I had played steel panthers and the versions from other studios to death over the years and really enjoyed the fact that I could build a core force and take them throughout the war on different fronts, and upgrading equipment as it came available, while replacing losses with points earned from victories. This is something I have always wished for in the Combat Mission series, It would make it the ultimate game and would book me out for years to come. I know CM Normandy has a story driven campaign, but would there be even a remote possiblity that sometime in the future this feature would be introduced ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Doubt it very much. AIUI its been asked for / considered over and over again and discarded over and over again. You could (with apologies to Wellington) say: Its been raised in the same old way, and was dealt with in the same old way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 gibsonm beat me to it ------------------- This is actually a topic that has popped up continuously throughout the years of CM and it has been discussed heavily on many occasions. So if you are interested in a deeper answer to your question then please do a search and you will find many both old and new threads ... however the short and sweet answer is: "Nope! Not going to happen as it is not realistic". Happy reading! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Hello. Some recent info from BF in this thread. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94574 From the horse mouth so to speak: "I have "mellowed" on the concept of Experience gain between battles. In CMx1 it was absolutely unrealistic to have them in the Operations type campaign system we developed. And any CMx2 Campaign that covers a very short period of time is also probably not a realistic platform for Experience gain. Thankfully the CMx2 engine does have some basic element which should help us solve those problems and realistically increase Experience over the course of a Campaign. Having said that, I'm still 100% against adding Experience gain to units that simply don't deserve it. This is as much about realism as it is about playability. What do I mean by that? When I played a Steel Panthers campaign, about mid way through the bulk of my core units were all the highest level of experience possible. And that meant I was going into battle with a force that seriously overmatched the enemy's. This then started to get into what we call a "feedback loop" within the system. The better my experience and equipment, the less likely I would take casualties. This in turn meant that the enemy units became easier and easier to destroy, which in turn meant I took fewer casualties, which meant my forces got better still, which meant I took even less casualties, which... I think you get the picture! I never completed the campaign because I was falling asleep during battles and still winning with little difficulty. It just wasn't interesting any more. So it is very, very important that Experience not increase more than it should or the Campaign's balance will be thrown off in a way that isn't easy to correct for. Steve" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Let me throw my two cents in. When I helped test CMSF this is something we begged for. The answer was an emphatic "as much as we would like to, it will take too much time, effort, resources, beer and chips, etc..." (paraphrashing of course). BFC is too small. In other words: not gonna happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetori Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'd be happy just with some APIs at the end of battles to ease analyzing the outcome and track individuals. What killed what, casualties, who got wounded, what vehicles got damaged/abandoned, ammo expended/left and so forth. Would be great help for meta campaigns or other community solutions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonks54 Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 gibsonm beat me to it ------------------- This is actually a topic that has popped up continuously throughout the years of CM and it has been discussed heavily on many occasions. So if you are interested in a deeper answer to your question then please do a search and you will find many both old and new threads ... however the short and sweet answer is: "Nope! Not going to happen as it is not realistic". Happy reading! What is not realistic about a unit fighting in several engagments throught a war ? Also, if the topic has popped up continuously over the years and there are many old and new threads, then its obviously a wanted feature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Also, if the topic has popped up continuously over the years and there are many old and new threads, then its obviously a wanted feature. Sure just not by the people who make the decisions. So again it wont be happening in the near future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 What is not realistic about a unit fighting in several engagments throught a war ? Also, if the topic has popped up continuously over the years and there are many old and new threads, then its obviously a wanted feature. It's not easy to implement a system that realistically depicts this as far as I understand. If you follow the BFC forums you'll find out there is a huge list of "To Do" stuff and prioritizations have to be made. A campaign generator will only come when the other stuff has been done. Better not get your hopes up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 What is not realistic about a unit fighting in several engagments throught a war? That's not the unrealistic part; I think what he was referring to was the way it worked in Steel Panthers. The way in which you could spend all of those points upgrading units frequently came out unrealistic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I was arguing for awhile for experience hits as a campaign progresses. Replacements would be green as grass and undertrained. Incoming replacement officers would have leadership penalties, and the surviving units would have progressively lower and lower morale. War, as they say, is hell. But they were just as disinterested in pursuing my 'battlefield entropy' scheme as in progressively increasing experience to übermenchen status by war's end. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonks54 Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 It's not easy to implement a system that realistically depicts this as far as I understand. If you follow the BFC forums you'll find out there is a huge list of "To Do" stuff and prioritizations have to be made. A campaign generator will only come when the other stuff has been done. Better not get your hopes up. I'm quiet happy to wait, I was not hoping for anything like this in CM Normandy, just sometime down the track. I think that Theater of war 3 will have a dynamic campaign system, that will have to keep me going until that day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 That's not the unrealistic part; I think what he was referring to was the way it worked in Steel Panthers. The way in which you could spend all of those points upgrading units frequently came out unrealistic. That campaign was bloody great fun for many of us. Those bothered by historical accuracy could try adhering to such self imposed limitations instead of pissing vinegar in to other peoples w(h)inecup. As to the sense or nonsense of customers bringing this topic up continually: this is still a discussion forum, not a cheerleading group? Trying to shut down the discussion with a "the great BFC have spoken" is neither here nor there in regards to customer desire for this feature. Yes there are a great many other features on the BFC's "to do" lists. But that list is so ginormous that people are understandably trying to boost their particular wishlist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 That campaign was bloody great fun for many of us. Those bothered by historical accuracy could try adhering to such self imposed limitations instead of pissing vinegar in to other peoples w(h)inecup. Sure. I played it, and I had a lot of fun with it too. I'm simply explaining Steve's point of view, not saying that I agree with it. As to the sense or nonsense of customers bringing this topic up continually: this is still a discussion forum, not a cheerleading group? Trying to shut down the discussion with a "the great BFC have spoken" is neither here nor there in regards to customer desire for this feature. Of course it's neither here nor there in regards to customer desire, but this thread asked a specific question. The question was, "will there be a campaign generator?" Since the great BFC has spoken and His answer was "no," it is entirely appropriate and relevant to put said information in this thread. Yes there are a great many other features on the BFC's "to do" lists. But that list is so ginormous that people are understandably trying to boost their particular wishlist. Absolutely! I understand that. My comment was not intended to discourage such wishlist-boosting, rather, it was addressing a specific point that the OP had raised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 You know, Elmar, it is pretty unique that the owners of a development house would take the time to respond to customers wishes at all. It's their necks on the line, not ours. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Boxb Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 True, it is nice to see them still so involved with the community after all the years and gnashing of teeth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Could always probably use something like RobO's Quick campaign (ROQC) for CMx1 series with CMBN too... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You know, Elmar, it is pretty unique that the owners of a development house would take the time to respond to customers wishes at all. It's their necks on the line, not ours. I don't think Elmar was talking about BFC but other forum users that use the "BFC has spoken" argument to shut down discussion. Yes Steve has expressed his very strong views on the subject and it is their neck on the line, but these forums are used for discussion and I see no problem in players letting BFC know how they feel on the subject in a respectful fashion. True, it is nice to see them still so involved with the community after all the years and gnashing of teeth. Yes it is great to have BFC involved in the forums to the extent that they are, and even more reason why we should have reasonable discourse. I know there are many pitfalls and a lot of work involved in building a dynamic campaign system, but if done correctly, it could be a great feature for the game. Does it need to happen before they release CMBN? Absolutely not... Will it generate revenue on its on if released as a separate module? Absolutely ... Will the revenue exceed the cost of development? BFC is the only ones that can answer this question , However I don't see how they can answer it truthfully if we don't make our opinions known... Years ago BTS had a dream of creating a game called CMBO and there were many pitfalls, problems and risks involved in making that dream a reality. Ultimately its their neck and their choice but players should still be able to express their opions in a respectful way. If there are potential problems with a dynamic campaign system then lets discuss them. Of course there are compromises that will need to be made but we can't get to that point unless we can have respectful discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfleek Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 * edit... too much careful wording... I simply hate the way Battlefront feels about these -in their eyes- gamey aspects. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I wonder how difficult it would be to write a program which supports an operational map made up of multiple BN maps. The player then selects which tile to attack, while the AI distributes its forces evenly along the front but forces from adjacent tiles participate in the battle. The info is then fed to Quickbattles and results are fed back to build a new front line, including forces brought from reserve. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well you could start by reading here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=57 Which details how almost the exact same type of system for CMx1 faltered after several years of trying to get it to work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I know all about it. IMO the reason it faltered is they tried something very immense and complicated to start with, would've been great if they succeeded, but oh well. What I'm proposing is something very rudimentary, literally as I described with no other features. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well then I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with. Certainly though BTS / BFC wont be doing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Any meaningful map based "campaign" system amounts too a whole new game. The only rational approach that doesn't involve man years of coding would be trying to write some sort of interface between a brigade/division level game that already exist and CMX2, and then you are probably talking man months of programming anyway, with a high risk of failure to boot. The amount of detailed handcrafting a decent, much less good, CMX2 map requires is just too high. Maybe, someday, if we are very good boys and girls, we can persuade BFC to rework the editor to accept a standard GIS format, but they haven't appeared interested so far. Then it goes from impossible to just really, really hard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well then I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with. Certainly though BTS / BFC wont be doing it. Yeah, I know they won't, I'm hoping someone else might step up. I might try it if I had more time. The amount of detailed handcrafting a decent, much less good, CMX2 map requires is just too high. How do people make campaigns then? Edit: Or do you mean an operational map? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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