campaign Generator?

[dan/california]

Every map in CMX2 is handcrafted. A 5 mission campaign for the current system could represent anywhere between 25 and a 100 hours of work if it involves all new maps. The QB system is built by randomly picking a pre-existing map.

A system to use pieces of handmade maps as randomly arranged tiles, like many board wargames, is on the to do list somewhere.

[dan/california]

Check out this thread to get an idea of how intnticate a single map project can be. I grant you he has gone somewhat above and beyond the call, but it represents what is possible. And it is VERY cool.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=92372

[SleeStak]

I followed Campaigns with great interest and I think that Wrath may be on to something. While I'm sure we won't see a campaign generator, it doesn't seem too far fetched to think CM:BN could provide a function to allow the import of Units and a map to a quick battle. The remaining units along with their ammo states, casualties, etc could then be exported at the end of the battle with some simple map data to establish who owns the terrain.

With a simple import/export routine, programmers could take a stab at creating a campaign generator to either create an individual campaign or support a large, referee managed campaign. It seems that Battlefront would only have to create the import/export routine and allow the community to fill a need that has been pretty regularly expressed, but is not on Battlefront's todo list. At some point, some genius will figure out how to best exploit the whole thing, write a great campaign generator and then we will all be richer. Plus, Battlefront will get a major game element for a little development or support effort.

With that said, I'm sure the effort necessary to create the import/export routine is not trivial and obviously, the good people at Battlefront haven't seen fit to do this yet. I'd love to see it.

[dan/california]

The CM community wants a great number of things that BFC would have to buy out an entire East European programming shop to produce. Too get them done in the next decade, anyway. I have repeatedly suggested this, in fact. For a lot of valid reasons they think it s a VERY bad idea. And it is their livelihoods on the line here.

[Zonks54]

I had figured that a Campaign generator similar to the one used in the steel panthers series would be a matter of interface, if 2 guys could do it 16 years ago, I don't really see the problem today.

Then again, it could be like me telling a mechanic that he should be able to install that engine in my car in an hour.

[gibsonm]

Every map in CMX2 is handcrafted. A 5 mission campaign for the current system could represent anywhere between 25 and a 100 hours of work if it involves all new maps.

And that 25 - 100 hours just gets you the maps.

Then you have to define the AI forces.

Write the AI routines.

Playtest.

Adjust and repeat the cycle.

Then when you are finished with the individual battles you have to merge it into a logical flowing campaign.

So no, not a job for a wet weekend.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So creating just the maps you need for a campaign generator shouldn't be that much worse than creating a full campaign now. As far as importing and exporting data, that should already be done for the current campaigns, no? Don't know how it would work with Quickbattles though, but in any case it might be possible to use savefiles to import and export data.

[gibsonm]

So creating just the maps you need for a campaign generator shouldn't be that much worse than creating a full campaign now. As far as importing and exporting data, that should already be done for the current campaigns, no? Don't know how it would work with Quickbattles though, but in any case it might be possible to use savefiles to import and export data.

Yes its a lot worse as in a current campaign you know roughly what is happening in a set sequence.

A Campaign generator is much harder as it introduces a lot of random stuff.

Basically if it was simple, they would have done it already!

[Paper Tiger]

I'll jump in here and say that it doesn't require nearly so much time to knock out a decent looking map with the Normandy editor as it can do with the Shock Force editor. I would spend 10+ hours manufacturing a medium sized map for CMSF but I can get a very decent looking map of similar size constructed in a couple of hours. Of course, if you are trying to recreate historical battlefields as closely as possible, you're going to spend quite a bit more time doing so. Fictional maps can be done very quickly though especially if you keep the building density low.

Of course, some of this is down to familiarity with using the editor. I work with it almost every single day.

[SleeStak]

I don't know that you'd have to create the entire generator with AI support in one bite. A simple import/export function would allow people to come up with ways of resolving the operational level stuff. That you could do with an excel spreadsheet and dice, another application using google maps and a db, a pad of paper, pencil and flipping a coin, whatever.

I remember a talented programmer put together a campaign for cmbb with a map built around von Manstein's invasion of the Crimea. He only finished one or two maps but was held back by the inability to link the outcomes of one battle to another. The ability to import/export units and their current states would open up so many possibilities.

I do data work and this doesn't seem like it would require an enormous amount of resources to make happen. Of course, everything always looks easier to code before the coding begins. Also BFC would have to actually want to do what I'm advocating and at least one poster suggested that they don't want to go this route. Alas!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes its a lot worse as in a current campaign you know roughly what is happening in a set sequence.

A Campaign generator is much harder as it introduces a lot of random stuff.

Basically if it was simple, they would have done it already!

No, there's no random stuff, that's all taken care of by the quick battle system. Btw, you can have quick battles against AI, right? How does that work without AI scripting?

The only thing the campaign AI would have to do is distribute the defending forces fairly evenly across the front line. The reason they haven't done it IMO is they see no value in it, they're afraid of criticism if they release something this rudementary in a commercial product, and they're so philosophically opposed to a dynamic campaign they won't even consider any suggestions.

[Baneman]

... The ability to import/export units and their current states would open up so many possibilities...

Seems to me that this is the ideal solution ( not even on release, but at some stage perhaps ). The tool is then in place and the users can make of it what they will.

Even within the limitations of CMx1, dedicated individuals have co-ordinated enjoyable campaigns - but it is a massive amount of work. An import/export facility could alleviate this whilst not taking the onus off the users.

[dan/california]

There has to be an AI plan written for each map, preferably more than one. The QB system just plugs the selected units into that plan.There no random anything to speak of, annd people would not be happy if there were. Even when we start to get some reactive AI, and they have said its coming, that will increase the amount of work that goes into each map because all of the possibilities will have to be thought out and tested.

Any editor bones waiting to be tossed our way then?

[gibsonm]

The only thing the campaign AI would have to do is distribute the defending forces fairly evenly across the front line. The reason they haven't done it IMO is they see no value in it, they're afraid of criticism if they release something this rudementary in a commercial product, and they're so philosophically opposed to a dynamic campaign they won't even consider any suggestions.

Well you can draw whatever conclusions you want of course.

[gibsonm]

Any editor bones waiting to be tossed our way then?

Well I guess so given that the first of the “Previews” is what 8 days away.

I’m sure people there will be able to look at the editor.

[Erwin]

The Close Command games had an operational/strategic overlay that allowed the player to assign formations (battalions/regiments/divisions etc) into a choice of operational areas/maps. This then set up a sampling of the units chosen to be played out on the tactical maps.

This seemed to be all that was required for CM Campaigns

But, IIRC the CMC project floundered thru too ambitious objectives - they tried to make it some sort of standalone operational/grand tactical game. A great shame.