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General Liederkranz

Bren Guns firing single shots?

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I'm playing the CMBN scenario "Keep Calm and Carry On" and seeing something that seems odd. When I give Bren gunners area fire orders at ranges of 200-300m, they're firing single shots, pausing to aim again after each one. This makes their effective rate of fire not much higher than the riflemen with them. I'd expected them to fire short bursts, like MG42s or DPs do, and I'm not sure they're inflicting much suppression. They only fire in bursts when the range is within 140m or so. It doesn't seem to make much difference whether I set them on Target or Target Light. Is this normal? Is there a way I can make them increase their rate of fire?

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I may be completely wrong as I don't under stand how sound affects graphics.  However, am wondering if a longer MG burst .wav creates a graphic sequence that is also longer.

To clarify, I now have 5 or 6 different MG42 .wav files, numbers so that the system should choose one at random.  At least one of those MG .wav options is a long burst.  Before I added the longer bursts, my MG42 bursts were very short when seen in game.  Now, the "MG42 burst graphics" seem longer.

So, try and get Bren option wav files that provide a longer burst and (first) use that by itself (ie remove the original Bren .wav and save it someplace)  See if the new graphics and sound of the Bren bursts in-game are longer.  If they are, then rename the original and new Bren .wav files "0" and "1" and you should get a random mix of the short and longer bursts.

 

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16 minutes ago, akd said:

You are completely wrong. ;)

Indeed, mods are entirely client-side and cosmetic in nature. God, I dare not imagine the results if you were able to direct the length of automatic fire bursts by putting in audio files of various lengths. The TACT-AI controls the firing rate, but it seems to me that LMG's with small magazine capacities have been firing single shots much more frequently since the 4.0 engine update. I wonder if this was desired or the result of a bug. In my opinion, this particularly affects the B.A.R, and handicaps U.S rifle squads beyond medium range. Not the end of the world, but I'd like to see this adressed, either by a confirmation that this was intended or by fixing it.

Edited by Xorg_Xalargsky

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I'm glad you've seen it too. I hadn't noticed it with the BAR but I just checked a saved game and I see that BARs with fire orders beyond 140m or so are also firing single shots. I know Brens were accurate and firing single shots sometimes is fine, but I'd like to be able to make them fire full auto when needed. Automatic suppressive beyond 150m or so is a niche that no other weapon in the section can fill--if you want close-range automatic fire, you already have the Sten, and for long-range aimed fire, you have the rifles. Maybe this is realistic and intended, but it seems surprising.

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On 3/24/2017 at 5:47 PM, General Liederkranz said:

I'm glad you've seen it too. I hadn't noticed it with the BAR but I just checked a saved game and I see that BARs with fire orders beyond 140m or so are also firing single shots. I know Brens were accurate and firing single shots sometimes is fine, but I'd like to be able to make them fire full auto when needed. Automatic suppressive beyond 150m or so is a niche that no other weapon in the section can fill--if you want close-range automatic fire, you already have the Sten, and for long-range aimed fire, you have the rifles. Maybe this is realistic and intended, but it seems surprising.

Ever since the V4 Upgrade, I always see smaller size Magazine type Auto Weapons like the BAR and Bren fire single shots starting just under the 200 meter mark.

Bigger size Magazine or Belt fed Auto Weapons like the Browning 30 Cal, DP, etc, might also be firing at smaller bursts (compared to V3) at the above ranges, but i'm not quit sure (thou, it seems the LMG 34/42 hasn't changed compared to it's counterparts).

Joe

Edited by JoMc67

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This sounds like the same thing I've seen. I've done some more testing and I'm not sure it's about v4. I don't have CMFB but I have seen the single-shot phenomenon in the CMFB Demo, which is at v3. I don't see it in CMFI (still at v3), where they fire bursts at longer ranges. So I wonder if it's about changes between base games, not about v4? Maybe this is a change introduced in CMFB at v3, and then v4 brought it into CMBN. When I have more time I'll set up more formal tests in the different base games. 

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1 hour ago, General Liederkranz said:

This sounds like the same thing I've seen. I've done some more testing and I'm not sure it's about v4. I don't have CMFB but I have seen the single-shot phenomenon in the CMFB Demo, which is at v3. I don't see it in CMFI (still at v3), where they fire bursts at longer ranges. So I wonder if it's about changes between base games, not about v4? Maybe this is a change introduced in CMFB at v3, and then v4 brought it into CMBN. When I have more time I'll set up more formal tests in the different base games. 

I still would imagine all v4 Games would be the same...

Actually, I brought up this very same issue not to long ago when v4 CMBN was released (part of the v4 Upgrade), and did some quick tests.

BAR & Bren around 100 meters seems to fire the normal 3-4 round bursts (or whatever it comes out to be), but around 150 meters it becomes 1-2 round bursts, then around 200 meters Single Shots.

And actually, I don't mind the Single Round Shots at range (to conserve ammo due to small Magazine size), but prefer it to start around the 250 meters range (standard medium range Small Arms fire), and keep between 2-4 round bursts under that range...-Or-...(as you mentioned) keep the Single Shot at longer range, but when using the 'Area-Fire' Order, then these Weapons would fire between 2-4 round bursts (again, depending on range).

Yes, I may also do some re-testing here at some point of all Automatics (including SMG, LMG & MMG/HMGs) at different ranges using 'Area-Fire', 'Light'-'Target', & AI Self Targeting, in both my BN & RT. 

 

 

Edited by JoMc67

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Presumably if one replaced the default Bren sound (which seems to be single shot) with a MG sound of a burst, that sound would then appear in the game.  The name is gun.bren.wav

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Presumably if one replaced the default Bren sound (which seems to be single shot) with a MG sound of a burst, that sound would then appear in the game.  The name is gun.bren.wav

 

 

Listen, Erwin...(right)...This has nothing to do with your 'Wav Sound Theory'...You will simply notice that more rounds are being fired at short range, and less at long range, and were trying to figure if it's designed that way or a 'Bug' (my guess it's designed that way, and should be tweaked).

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I'm now also seeing this with the Italian Breda M30 LMG in the CMFI update. I think JoMc67 is right that it has to do with small magazine size, since that's what the BAR, Bren, and Breda have in common. These weapons effectively behave like SMGs under 150m and like rifles over 150m.

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I re-played 'Shadow of the Hill - 7am' over the long weekend, now in v4.0 (last time was in 3.0), and found the long range (approx. 200m plus) Bren shooting change very noticeable. I think practically all of my carrier mounted scout teams were shooting rifle fashion - definitely felt it diminished the suppressive effect on targets in the open/ soft cover. Be curious to know if there was a deliberate intention to introduce this as part of the v4 infantry behaviour changes.

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I've seen it in all my games, both against the AI and against humans in pbems  after v4 release (about 7 games so far). Brens and BARs consistently fire one shot at a time over about 150 meters, and in bursts under 150. I can't decide if I like it or not...less ammo wastage I would think over 150, but there are times when a sweet target like a team or whole squad shows itself at some range over 150 and they still just plug away with single shots.

Edited by mjkerner

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4 minutes ago, mjkerner said:

I've seen it in all my games, both against the AI and against humans in pbems  after v4 release (about 7 games so far). Brens and BARs consistently fire one shot at a time over about 150 meters, and in bursts under 150. I can't decide if I like it or not...less ammo wastage I would think over 150, but there are times when a sweet target like a team or whole squad shows itself at some range over 150 and they still just plug away with single shots.

That's been my sense, that this behavior persists for juicy targets of opportunity as well as for Target commands, and I'm glad to hear confirmation. This makes me see this more as a problem than as just a different behavior. I can maybe understand single shots for Target commands, but if Brens and BARs won't fire bursts at moving enemy infantry in the open say 250m away, it seems to cripple them as defensive weapons. 

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On 4/18/2017 at 10:00 AM, General Liederkranz said:

I'm now also seeing this with the Italian Breda M30 LMG in the CMFI update. I think JoMc67 is right that it has to do with small magazine size, since that's what the BAR, Bren, and Breda have in common. These weapons effectively behave like SMGs under 150m and like rifles over 150m.

Actually, it's gets pretty bad when an SMG is more effective then an Automatic Rifle/LMG at 200 meters.

Also, aren't many of the German LMG's Drum fed (I see it in the re-load animation), and should also suffer the same fate (single-rounds shots) as others Magazine fed LMG's near the 200 meter mark ?...As it stands now, the Germans, who already had a slightly better advantage pre-v4 (rightly so), will now enjoy an even much better advantage near and beyond the 200 meter mark.  

If this is a bug I hope BF gets it fixed...If not a Bug and intentional, then I recommend BF extend the range to around the 250 meter mark for a 2-3 Burst fire (med range), then single rounds past that range. 

Edited by JoMc67

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I think the magic number for magazine size is somewhere between 31 and 47. In my observations, BARs (20 rounds), Brens (30 rounds), and Bredas (20 rounds) do the single-shot thing, while MG34s/42s (50 rounds), DPs (47 rounds), and SAWs (I think 200 rounds?) are still firing bursts at longer ranges. I suspect they're now governed by the same logic the TacAI uses for assault rifles, since the MP44, AK-74, and M4A1 have 30-round magazines and they revert to single shots at longer ranges. I'd argue this makes sense for the assault rifles, but not for LMGs, even the ones handicapped by small magazines.

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