Small Arms NOT Reloading Between Engagements

[General Jack Ripper]

One thing I'll say, is watching your Submachine Gunners stop to reload during a close assault is very frustrating.

However, the behavior is legitimate. Most of the time one doesn't realize how low their magazine is until they squeeze the trigger and feel a 'click' instead of a 'bang'.

As I understand it, tactical reloading is generally only done when ordered to. You don't want your soldiers running around with a dozen half-empty magazines. That would cause more problems than it solves.

Edited December 29, 2016 by SLIM

[WynnterGreen]

I've got no problem with the need to reload during the assault.

I've got a problem with the individual sitting around for 30 turns prior to the assault and not reloading or consolidating ammo.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, WynnterGreen said:

I've got a problem with the individual sitting around for 30 turns prior to the assault and not reloading or consolidating ammo.

That strikes me as a legitimate gripe. But I don't expect to see anything done about it any time soon...or possibly ever. The reason being that it strikes me as a huge project to tell the computer when to reload and not to reload without the player's intervention. That's a problem that may not be solved in a humanly possible amount of time and work. Maybe as has been suggested, a button labeled Reload might be added if there is enough demand for such a thing. But I don't see the AI being able to cope with the decision making process in a way that won't drive a player crazy sometimes.

 Michael

[Holman]

Considering the degree to which CM soldiers are still influenced by unrealistic player omniscience and control, untimely reloading is the sort of thing I'll just chalk up to friction and chance.

[Sailor Malan2]

Agreed!

 

and I repeat, any troops on a cm battlefield are effectively in action. They are often only metres away from being shot at, so thinking they should be doing non tactical things is questionable. When they get an ammo resupply is the right time to sort mags out. 

[Baneman]

13 hours ago, WynnterGreen said:

I've got a problem with the individual sitting around for 30 turns prior to the assault and not reloading or consolidating ammo.

 

11 hours ago, Holman said:

Considering the degree to which CM soldiers are still influenced by unrealistic player omniscience and control, untimely reloading is the sort of thing I'll just chalk up to friction and chance.

Yes, you may know they're sitting around for 30 turns, but to a pixelguy, he could be in action again at any moment. 

[A Canadian Cat]

^^^ this, the last two posts.

[Doc844]

Just for my two cents and from my own experiences in iraq, there a 3 possible scenarios regarding reloading in relation to the threads subject matter,

1,  section commander will order a half and half, half of delta and half of charlie would reload while the other half cover, this would ne done when there is a lull but contact could be imminent or resume.

2. You have expended rounds and have been gash and lost count of how many rounds you have fired, there is then a lull in fighting, YOU change that mag, whip it off stick it down your smock and get a fresh one on.  Deadmans click is not your friend.

3.  You KNOW you have fired 25 rnds, (my 25th round was always a tracer), you get a lull or ceasefire, you change the mag 5 is not 30, more is better.

 

As a side note the assaulters will always try to make sure to jam on a fresh mag before going into the final assault no matter what, again deadmans click is not your friend.  Ive personally had this happen to me but thankfully it was at Otterburn, got into final assault position, fresh mag on, delta switched their suppresive fire, i jumped up, full auto, 2 rnds fired then i got a stoppage, bugger.

 

On saying all that though, within a section, troops dont just bang away, the section commander controls the fire rate and who fires, nobody wants to have everyone changing mags at the same time.  As for loose ammo, well our load out was 6 30 rnd mags and 300 in bandoliers on clip strips for fast reloading of mags.  I would assume that WW2 troops would be the same with x amount of mags and the rest in bandoliers.  So in a firefight as ammo is expended and the engagement is dragging on 1 or 2 men will ne detailed to drop back and bomb up, ie replen mags and dish them out.  This would be problematic for some weapons ie the garand as it was breach loaded on a clip and it was i believe easier to fire off the clip then reload it, ive read somewhere that germans would actually listen for the distictive ting sound then close for the assault knowing that troops were reloading, bit of bummer when your weapon system tells everyone your empty.

 

Anyway as for CM as a game i agree with Michael Emrys in that coding it would be alot of work for what would be little gain, the reloading timing can be annoying but really your assaulters shouldnt be firing until they are assaulting, thats what your base of fire is for, so it doesnt affect me that often.  Pretty sure BF have always said that they cant afford to burn time on money on something in game that is not going to have a significant impact or improvement.

[Bulletpoint]

On 12/30/2016 at 2:31 AM, Michael Emrys said:

The reason being that it strikes me as a huge project to tell the computer when to reload and not to reload without the player's intervention.

It could work a bit like the medic AI decision? The troops will generally only start doing medic aid when they are not suppressed and there's no enemy in sight.

The guys could just have another check added: "Am I under fire? No. Do I see any enemy contacts? No. Do I see any buddies needing aid? No. Then should I maybe top up my ammo? Yes."

[Erwin]

"...6 30 rnd mags and 300 in bandoliers on clip strips..."

Thank you for this info. (Have been asking for years re how much ammo a typical rifleman would carry so my CM squads could be loaded appropriately in the set up.)

So, about 480 rounds per soldier when going into battle (3,840 rounds for an 8-man squad)? 

If the squad also has MG's like the German MG42 or MG34 would the squad have to carry additional ammo for those weapons as well?  If so, how many extra rounds would the squad carry?  (Eg:  An extra X rounds per MG to be carried by an 8 man squad?)  

 

 

 

 

[BlutUndEhre]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 9:29 AM, Michael Emrys said:

I think the Garand was quite a bit different. I have no personal experience with the weapon, but my understanding is that the clip was automatically ejected when the last round was fired. I'm not sure how you would get the clip out if there was a round or two still in it, maybe work the bolt/slide until it is completely empty. The issue of reloading a partially empty clip was addressed in print and was not something that would be done by choice.

Michael

If one wishes to "top off" an M1 you simply pull the bolt back and push the button on the left side of the receiver to eject the clip.  A clip loaded with just one round is heavy enough to just pop out of the magazine and you can then push loose rounds into the clip before locking it back in and letting the bolt fly forward to chamber a round.  Contrary to popular belief, you can also load an M1 clip without the full eight rounds.  Once again, you pull the bolt back, drop the empty clip into the lug slots in the receiver but don't try to fully seat it (that would cause the bolt to move forward and eject the empty clip), and then thumb loose rounds into the clip.  When you've put all you've got into it you then seat the clip and let the bolt go forward.  An old range buddy of mine and Iwo Jima survivor showed me those tricks years ago despite me having owned M1s for years before meeting him.  Just goes to show you what nifty stuff a guy who has counted on a tool to preserve his life will know in comparison to a hobbyist who likes to fool around and make noise on the weekends!

[General Liederkranz]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

"...6 30 rnd mags and 300 in bandoliers on clip strips..."

Thank you for this info. (Have been asking for years re how much ammo a typical rifleman would carry so my CM squads could be loaded appropriately in the set up.)

So, about 480 rounds per soldier when going into battle (3,840 rounds for an 8-man squad)? 

If the squad also has MG's like the German MG42 or MG34 would the squad have to carry additional ammo for those weapons as well?  If so, how many extra rounds would the squad carry?  (Eg:  An extra X rounds per MG to be carried by an 8 man squad?)  

 

 

 

 

I assume this is for a modern 5.56mm rifle though, right? WW2 squads would cary a lot less per man (as the game's default settings show) because it's heavier 7.62/7.92/etc. ammo.

[Erwin]

Good point.  However, even in CMBS and CMSF it seems that the default ammo load is approx. 200 rounds per man.  Does a squad take extra for a MG?   Usually, a modern scenario has vehicles with extra ammo.  However, there are many missions with only inf, and have always thought that the ammo load in those cases was rather low.  It certainly discourages recon by fire or area fire.

So, what would a typical WW2 ammo load be per soldier?

[kulik]

Lots of over thinking in this thread IMHO. Having your assault team wiped out due to them assaulting with almost empty mags is annoying and happened to me on numerous occasions. I don't need battlefront write complex logic for the AI to identify ideal reload times, I wouldn't mind sort of approximation like if the guys have been idling for a round or two, consider their guns reloaded and just pop a reloading animation that could be interrupted if they need to fire. I could live with that.

[cool breeze]

Kulik's quick and dirty seems legit but otherwise I for my 2 cents think its fine as is.

[BlutUndEhre]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Good point.  However, even in CMBS and CMSF it seems that the default ammo load is approx. 200 rounds per man.  Does a squad take extra for a MG?   Usually, a modern scenario has vehicles with extra ammo.  However, there are many missions with only inf, and have always thought that the ammo load in those cases was rather low.  It certainly discourages recon by fire or area fire.

So, what would a typical WW2 ammo load be per soldier?

Typical ammo counts, obviously, depend on nationality and, occasionally, unit type.  I collect WWII firearms and personal equipment and this groggiest of subjects is one of my favorites, so here we go! 

A German rifleman armed with a Kar98k would carry two three-pocket leather pouches on his belt with two five-round strippers in each pocket for a total of 60 rounds ready to go and five already in the weapon.  The rare Gewehr 41 rifleman would carry an identical load to the Kar98k rifleman aside from his weapon having ten rounds ready to fire.  If he was armed with a Gewehr 43 he would have a two-magazine pouch on his belt (those magazines were not intended for combat reloads but rather spares in case of the magazine in the weapon being damaged or lost) and one leather pouch for strippers giving him fifty rounds at hand in addition to the ten already in the weapon.  Despite the intentions of command for the spare magazines not to be used unless the main was damaged or lost, I think we can safely assume that with only thirty rounds in strippers (three reloads for the G43) most soldiers in a prolonged firefight are going to be recharging with the magazines at some point.  As a G43 owner I can tell you that it is apparent at the first that the weapon was not designed to be reloaded in this fashion aside from in an emergency as, unlike modern magazine-fed firearms, loading with strippers through the top is infinitely preferable to swapping magazines.  An MP40-armed soldat would carry two three-pocket pouches on either side of his belt for a total of 192 rounds on his belt and 32 already in the weapon.  If carrying a Stg. 44 he would have a similar set-up with two three-pocket pouches on either side of his belt for a total of 180 rounds on his belt and another 30 in the weapon.  In the extremely rare cases of a FG 42 armed Fallschirmjager he would carry an eight-pocket bandolier for a total of 160 rounds around his neck and another 20 in the weapon.  On paper, only the three-man MG team of a squad would be assigned to carrying ammunition with the allocated loads being a fifty-round drum or belt for the #1 man, the #2 carrying four fifty-round belts or drums and a three hundred-round can, and the #3 man with two three hundred-round cans.  In actual practice you would have underequipped soldaten with little extra MG ammo at all to overequipped squads with everyone carrying a can of ammo for the MG.

Now, moving right along on to the Brits whose P37 webbing is fascinating for the options one has with it.  The standard and most commonly encountered P37 set-up for the squad leader to the Bren gunner to the rifleman would be the belt with two large basic pouches on either side.  Those pouches would hold four thirty-two-round Sten magazines apiece for a total of two hundred fifty-six rounds on the belt and another thirty-two in the weapon.  If carrying a Bren the basic pouches would hold two thirty-round magazines apiece for a total of 120 rounds on the belt and another thirty in the weapon.  As for a rifleman, the pouches could hold three thirty-two-round cartons, two forty-eight-round cartons, or two fifty-round bandoliers for a grand total of ninety-six to one hundred rounds on the belt and another ten in the rifle.  Riflemen also commonly carried the cloth fifty-round bandoliers slung over the chest in addition to or even sometimes in place of the cartons or bandoliers in the pouches which would instead be used to carry extra magazines for the squad Bren, so a rifleman could have anywhere from one hundred to two hundred rounds on him.

So, now we move on to specialized P37 webbing.  From my years of looking through combat photos for this stuff and also collecting it and seeing how much or little of it is out there, I feel comfortable in saying that the above paragraph probably sums up the most common load for Commonwealth infantrymen, but there is enough of these specialized bits of kit out there to justify accounting for these possible ammo loads, as well.  There was a seven-pocket Sten bandolier that could be slung in addition to the basic pouch load which would give a Sten gunner an extra 224 rounds to augment or replace the basic pouch load.  Bren gunners and assistants often carried two utility pouches which held three Bren magazines apiece in addition to their basic pouches which would give them a full load of three hundred thirty rounds.  In the early war riflemen were supposed to be issued two cartridge carriers which held twenty rounds apiece in addition to the ten in the rifle for a total of fifty rounds but judging from the photographic evidence this was abandoned relatively quickly in favor of loading the basic pouches up with .303 chargers, cartons, or bandoliers.

For the Americans the loads are more standard than the Brits, though when we discuss Airborne units the waters become murkier.  The standard leg rifleman would have the M1923 ten-pocket cartridge belt holding eighty rounds for an M1 (one hundred in the rare cases with an M1903 or M1917) and another eight in the weapon for eighty-eight rounds.  He would also likely be carrying at least one and, in many cases, two six-pocket bandoliers slung across the chest which would augment his load by forty-eight to ninety-six rounds giving the American rifleman a total of ninety-six to one hundred ninety-two rounds at the ready.  A B.A.R. man had the specialized M1937 B.A.R. six-pocket cartridge belt giving him a total of one hundred twenty rounds on his belt and another twenty in the weapon.  Soldiers issued with the M1 carbine would have at minimum one two-pocket pouch on the belt for thirty rounds and another fifteen in the weapon but this was more commonly increased by wearing two two-pocket pouches on the M1936 belt in addition to a buttstock pouch on the rifle giving the soldier one hundred five rounds total.  Thompson submachine gunners carried a minimum of one five-pocket twenty-round magazine pouch on the M1936 belt which would give them one hundred rounds of ammo in addition to the twenty or, uncommonly, thirty already in the weapon.  This could be augmented by carrying two of these pouches which would give a total of two hundred thirty rounds, carrying an additional three-pocket pouch for thirty-round magazines which would give the gunner a total of two hundred twenty rounds, or carrying a spare magazine bag or M1 ammunition bag slung over the shoulder which held six twenty or thirty-round magazines for a total of two hundred twenty to two hundred eighty rounds.  On paper only the B.A.R. assistants carried extra magazines but as the reality of the necessity of steady automatic fire for suppression dawned on the Americans it became common for every man in a squad to carry extra magazines or ammo in stripper clips to continue feeding the squad's automatics.

Much of the above applies to the Airborne troopers with the addition of rigger pouches which, although extremely rare these days like most Airborne gear, were common enough in theater to feature prominently in many photographs.  They were theater-made by the division's parachute riggers and were used for all manner of gear carrying from extra grenades to rifle ammunition.  The most common rigger pouches were the rectangular ones for the rifles and carbines and they were carried on M1936 pistol belts.  They hold four eight-round en bloc clips for the M1 rifle or five fifteen-round magazines for the M1A1 carbine and were generally carried two to four at a time.  This means an Airborne rifleman opting for the rigger pouches over the M1923 cartridge belt would carry sixty-four to one hundred twenty-eight rounds for his rifle before adding chest bandoliers and a carbine-equipped trooper would be carrying one hundred fifty to three hundred rounds on his person.  I have also seen photos of troopers carrying the standard web equipment but having rigger pouches hung off of the M1936 suspenders.  A buttstock pouch will also fit on the leather cheek piece of the M1A1 carbine (from period photographs this appears to be uncommon) which increases the ammo count by another thirty rounds. 

Riggers also made a submachine gun pouch capable of holding four thirty-round magazines for a Thompson (you can squeeze four M3 magazines into one, as well but it is a bitch to get them out) and these would be carried in sets of two to four depending on how loaded down a trooper cared to be.  A trooper with these rigger pouches would have a total of one hundred sixty to four hundred eighty rounds on his belt and he could also be carrying a spare ammunition bag over the shoulder for an additional one hundred rounds.  The squad machine gunner would have one hundred to two hundred fifty rounds loaded in the weapon and ready to go and another two hundred fifty round can in his musette bag.  Because mortars and machine guns were organic to the rifle platoon every trooper also carried extra 60mm mortar rounds, generally two to three, and most would also have a two hundred fifty round can of belted ammo for the squad M1919.  Another thing to keep in mind when trying to figure an average round count for paratroopers is the fact that those big ol' pockets on the M1942 suits and the rigger-added jump pockets on M1943 trousers were not there for the purpose of looking cool, they were added because men expecting to drop behind enemy lines and be isolated for any period of time want room to carry more stuff, stuff most typically being more pyrotechnics.  These pockets could have everything from spare clips to Hawkins mines jammed into them so conceivably you could be dealing with sixty-four more rounds of .30 M2 ball or one hundred-twenty rounds of .30 carbine ammo.  

And last, but certainly not least, we'll look at the Soviet combat load.  The typical rifleman, armed with either 91/30 or SVT-40 would carry a belt with two two-pocket pouches on either side of it for forty rounds on the belt and five (ten for the SVT) in the rifle.  It was also common enough for a rifleman to carry a sixty-round bandolier slung over the chest which brings the rifleman's ammo count to one hundred ten rounds.  Later in the war the standard two-pocket pouches were supplemented by a one-piece leather pouch which had adjustable leather dividers on the inside that would allow one to configure it to hold four five-round stripper clips or two SVT-40 magazines though the ammo count remains the same.  Submachine gunners with a PPSh-41 would typically carry a seventy-one round drum in the weapon, a spare drum in a cloth pouch on the belt, and a three-pocket magazine pouch on the belt for a total of two hundred forty-seven rounds.  The DP-28 gunner would carry a pouch slung over his shoulder containing three forty-seven round pans in addition to his already loaded weapon and his assistant would carry the "transit box", a metal drum containing three more forty-seven round pans, giving the MG team three hundred twenty-nine rounds to work with.

Sorry if this is just too damn much reading and I hope I don't piss anybody off by filling a whole page with my ranting but I find this subject fascinating and I love to go off about it when given a chance!

[JonS]

Good post

[Heinrich505]

Really good read.  Thanks for posting this.

Heinrich505

[Doc844]

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

"...6 30 rnd mags and 300 in bandoliers on clip strips..."

Thank you for this info. (Have been asking for years re how much ammo a typical rifleman would carry so my CM squads could be loaded appropriately in the set up.)

So, about 480 rounds per soldier when going into battle (3,840 rounds for an 8-man squad)? 

If the squad also has MG's like the German MG42 or MG34 would the squad have to carry additional ammo for those weapons as well?  If so, how many extra rounds would the squad carry?  (Eg:  An extra X rounds per MG to be carried by an 8 man squad?)  

 

 

 

 

Sorry should have stipulated that it was a modern load out.  As for ammo for gimpy, im wracking my brain here, i was a mortarman for my last 5 years, i got to carry a big heavy base plate,  but if memory serves the gunner would carry 1000 rnds and the section would carry 200 spare per man.

[Erwin]

BUE:  Very helpful and useful info re figuring out how much ammo is reasonable to give our pixeltruppen during the set-up phase.  Thank you...

[Firehead]

I will add my personal experience, though I think it has been thoroughly covered.

What you are referring to is commonly known as a "tactical" reload. I was taught, and regularly practiced a tactical reload at any point I wasn't actively firing my weapon. I estimated rounds based on magazine weight, but I always put a fresh source into my weapon. Thought you fired 4 rounds? Man...was it 10? Doesn't matter, since I'm about to throw 30 back into the rifle.

If the magazine feels really light I'll put it in my dumper, or if I think it has 20ish rounds, I'll re-stack my ammunition and it goes into the last magazine pouch I draw from. I always drew from left to right (I'm right handed). At any time there was a lull in the fight ammo is getting reorganized so that I had a fresh magazine at my left most pouch. That way, when I engage again and I deplete the entire magazine, I can perform an immediate reload(drop the magazine where you stand, load magazine and cycle the bolt). Bullets are cheap, life is expensive.

With all that being said, the techniques I have described didn't become common practice(something most infantry soldiers know) until the most recent wars in the middle east, particularly when soldiers were fighting in urban terrain. Were similar techniques practiced prior to then? Sure, but it has taken a lot of combat for guys to figure out what works and what doesn't. For belted weapons, and the Garand in particular ammunition management is more difficult. Unless it comes in a box magazine, it is damned near impossible.

[LukeFF]

11 hours ago, BlutUndEhre said:

Sorry if this is just too damn much reading and I hope I don't piss anybody off by filling a whole page with my ranting but I find this subject fascinating and I love to go off about it when given a chance!

No need to be sorry - I love (and collect) this stuff as well! I have a closet shelf piled high with ammo pouches, bayonets, and cleaning kits.  

[BlutUndEhre]

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

No need to be sorry - I love (and collect) this stuff as well! I have a closet shelf piled high with ammo pouches, bayonets, and cleaning kits.  

That sounds uncannily like my own bedroom closet which looks more like a WWII resupply depot than a wardrobe.  There's a thin line of my shirts and pants on one side that is flanked by field jackets, webbing, and helmets, and the other side is wall-to-wall small arms!

[General Jack Ripper]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:06 PM, BlutUndEhre said:

Sorry if this is just too damn much reading and I hope I don't piss anybody off by filling a whole page with my ranting but I find this subject fascinating and I love to go off about it when given a chance!

Welcome to the forums, and no, write as much as you want.