Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[JUAN DEAG]

On 12/28/2016 at 9:51 AM, VladimirTarasov said:

You see... If Russia actually through forth a legitimate motor rifle battalion into that battle It'd be over way quicker than 4 months.

Bit more than a battalion tbh.

Evidence/database used for this video:

http://russian-presence-in-ukraine.silk.co/

[Battlefront.com]

11 hours ago, HerrTom said:

Haven't the LNR units consistently shown poor performance throughout the war, regardless of their equipment?  I thought this caused a somewhat hush-hush row when the Russians had to bail out several LNR units in the east last year.

Correct.  The LPR is the smaller and reportedly more dysfunctional of the two.  It's fighting performance has been abysmal since the start right through to today.  When the 2014 Russian counter offensive started there was a weak force of Ukrainians pressing into the city of Luhansk from the north and having cut the city off in the south.  Regular Russian forces, including the only fully documented use of T-90s, pushed the Ukrainians out from south of city but only made very modest gains elsewhere.  The front has been largely stable ever since, though obviously not totally quiet.  There have been no LPR offensives I can recall, not even on a small scale.  All focus of military operations has been in the DPR sectors.

There's been some very brutal infighting within the LPR.  Recently there was a supposed "coup" and several prominent members of the LPR "government" were murdered.  Some even on Russian soil.  The DPR sent a detachment of fighters into LPR to support the counter actions.

Steve

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

There have been no LPR offensives I can recall, not even on a small scale.  All focus of military operations has been in the DPR sectors.

Russian offensive in Luhansk sector was the same strong like on Donetsk direction, but Ukrainain forces were defending toughly and have foiled all attempts of Russians to make second Ilovaisk in this area. LNR forces participated in assault of Luhansk airport and in the battles around Luhansk together with Russians. 

Interestng, that success of UKR forces defensive battle in sector "A" to this time remained poor known for wide mass of Ukrainians. Every know about disaster around Ilovaisk, but much less about Luhansk airport, Khriashchuvate, Georgiivka etc. Despite on Ukrainan troops were forced to withdraw beyond Siverskyi Donets river, they could save all battle orders and inflict relatively big losses to Russian troops and to force them to reject from advancing on Kharkiv direction in case of total destroying of our units.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Haiduk

[VladimirTarasov]

3 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Bit more than a battalion tbh.

So 75 brigades/regiments/detachment  present according to inform napalm? Did I miss the push for Kiev or?  Yes Russian military was and is in Donbas, but those numbers are complete BS by any regard. The evidence presented by the video needs to be re analyzed... From those units maybe individuals have been present in form of at most battalion/company/platoon/squad... And we need to verify every single unit infonapalm has put forth in that video to verify those units exist and aren't some BS units. 

And my battalion remark was for the airport battle, where Ukrainians believe they were fighting hordes of Russian special forces and motor rifle troops, the best of the best lol... 

[Battlefront.com]

3 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Russian offensive in Luhansk sector was the same strong like on Donetsk direction, but Ukrainain forces were defending toughly and have foiled all attempts of Russians to make second Ilovaisk in this area. LNR forces participated in assault of Luhansk airport and in the battles around Luhansk together with Russians. 

I should have been more specific.  I was speaking about since Minsk too effect.  But even during the 2014 Russian counter offensive most of the effort was expanding the DPR, especially towards Mariupol.

3 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Interestng, that success of UKR forces defensive battle in sector "A" to this time remained poor known for wide mass of Ukrainians. Every know about disaster around Ilovaisk, but much less about Luhansk airport, Khriashchuvate, Georgiivka etc. Despite on Ukrainan troops were forced to withdraw beyond Siverskyi Donets river, they could save all battle orders and inflict relatively big losses to Russian troops and to force them to reject from advancing on Kharkiv direction in case of total destroying of our units.

Yes, this is something few know about and it is often skipped over by people wishing to say only bad things about Ukrainian forces.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

So 75 brigades/regiments/detachment  present according to inform napalm? Did I miss the push for Kiev or?  Yes Russian military was and is in Donbas, but those numbers are complete BS by any regard.

We have discussed this before, but I think I have to remind you again.  Nobody is saying that 75 brigades/regiments/detachments fought in Ukraine.  What the evidence shows is that PARTS of these specific 75 brigades/regiments/detachments fought in Ukraine.  Sometimes the amount of force used from a brigade was no more than company sized, other times battalion sized.

The standard method for Russia to create a BMG to fight in Ukraine was to find all personnel within a brigade/regiment that was willing to fight in Ukraine.  This was combined with as many soldiers that Russia could coerce into going to Ukraine.  These soldiers were used to form a single battalion combined arms force.

At other times the same system was used to create a single company sized force.

Either way, these units were rotated into Ukraine for only short periods of time.  So over the past 2.5 years a large number of units have rotated in and out of Ukraine.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

And my battalion remark was for the airport battle, where Ukrainians believe they were fighting hordes of Russian special forces and motor rifle troops, the best of the best lol... 

That is a far more accurate account of the battle than what is said from the DPR side where coal miners and taxi drivers using sharp sticks managed to defeat the huge Ukrainian army with absolutely no help from Russia.

Russian special forces definitely were involved in the battle, but of course it is very difficult to say how many or what they did because only Russia and the DPR know, but both have shown no interest in telling the truth.  Or even believable lies.

Steve

[VladimirTarasov]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

That is a far more accurate account of the battle than what is said from the DPR side where coal miners and taxi drivers using sharp sticks managed to defeat the huge Ukrainian army with absolutely no help from Russia.

Well in the beginning that was true, I remember check points with bats. But that's why Locals without any support got destroyed by Ukrainian forces. An army is definitely way better equipped than make shift local units, or volunteers from say Russia without any military standards. 

This battle in Svetlodarsk arc doesn't really show much, the DPR hasn't been allowed to do much even with the Ukrainians storming their checkpoints, and advancing into the town Novoluhans'ke. The Ukrainians have successfully made the outer defense in that perimeter retreat tactically, but the casualties on both sides are around equal if we want to be fair. Most due to shelling... Other battles where actual offensives be it from Ukrainians or DPR with or without Russian motor rifles have resulted in far more devestating battles. Ones where pictures of popped up tank turrets and BMPs and BTRs shredded have resulted, those are decisive battles. 

Anyways, Ukrainians have great soldiers they are still our Slavic brothers after all . But their effectivity let alone command is still poor for the most part(compared to Russian army), if we are to take analysis of Debaltsevo to heart. They have capable units of course, but against Russian troops especially if they came in with full combat arms support (fully fledged units) I don't think they'd be doing as good as against Locals and volunteers with limited Russian support, just like the August counter-offensive shows. Anyways enough of me rambling, I'm really bored I promised someone a battle but my computer is acting up...  I really want to play 4.0 I heard you guys made it pretty good  but please please please sometime in the future add the ability to sit my poor Russkii and Ukrainian troops on top of those thin soviet "junk" as panzer would call it.  

[John Kettler]

JUAN DEAG,

From a military intelligence perspective, that was a quite a video, never mind the trenchant observations. Here is the counterpart video covering the most recent look at latest Russian military hardware spotted in Donbas. Article for the video is here.

 

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Well in the beginning that was true, I remember check points with bats. But that's why Locals without any support got destroyed by Ukrainian forces. An army is definitely way better equipped than make shift local units, or volunteers from say Russia without any military standards. 

Yet the DPR/LPR/Russia still try to pretend this is who does the fighting.  In any case, my point remains as it was from the start... the airport battle is nothing the DPR should be proud of.  It is nothing Russians should look at and say "this is a shining example of success".  It was a poorly fought battle which is considered a success only because the truth is not being told.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

This battle in Svetlodarsk arc doesn't really show much, the DPR hasn't been allowed to do much even with the Ukrainians storming their checkpoints, and advancing into the town Novoluhans'ke. The Ukrainians have successfully made the outer defense in that perimeter retreat tactically, but the casualties on both sides are around equal if we want to be fair. Most due to shelling... Other battles where actual offensives be it from Ukrainians or DPR with or without Russian motor rifles have resulted in far more devestating battles. Ones where pictures of popped up tank turrets and BMPs and BTRs shredded have resulted, those are decisive battles. 

Of course this is not a decisive battle.  Neither was the airport or, probably at the end of the day, any battle up to now.  The war is not over and whatever gains either side has made mean nothing until the war is ended.  That will not happen until Putin decides to end it.

What this battle shows is what has been stated already... the DPR (and to a lessor extent LPR) forces are not capable of successful offensive action without significant direct aid from Russia.  Ukraine, on the other hand, is showing that it is a capable fighting force.  This further reinforces my opinion that if the war goes "hot" again Russia will have to invest even more forces than it did in summer 2014 just to keep DPR/LPR from collapsing.  The forces of the DPR/LPR are simply incapable of defending their territory.  I've explained in detail why this is not surprising.  They are mercenaries and mercenaries desert sinking ships.  Russia for sure knows this and it is the biggest reason why, I think, Putin has no interest in seeing this war go hot.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Anyways, Ukrainians have great soldiers they are still our Slavic brothers after all .

Don't be so sure about that.  Ukrainians are well aware that Putin is the one behind all the murder and destruction in the Donbas as well as the theft of Crimea.  They could probably keep their blame on Putin instead of Russians, but given the enthusiasm Russians have for Putin's policies... I see indications that there's building resentment, distrust, and dislike of the Russian people as well as Putin.  That is one of the worst things about Putin's policies towards Ukraine.  The long term damage is probably worse than the destroyed buildings and full graves.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

But their effectivity let alone command is still poor for the most part(compared to Russian army), if we are to take analysis of Debaltsevo to heart. They have capable units of course, but against Russian troops especially if they came in with full combat arms support (fully fledged units) I don't think they'd be doing as good as against Locals and volunteers with limited Russian support, just like the August counter-offensive shows.

This is a point I keep coming back to.  Russia had considerable difficulties against a much poorer equipped, poorer lead, and poorer motivated Ukrainian forces than what exists today.  Certainly Ukraine will have more problems fighting full Russian units than it does Russian backed units, but Russia will have much more difficulty against Ukraine's forces compared to 2014 and even 2015.  If one looks at Debaltseve objectively, Russia has a lot of problems even then.

If Russia invades Ukraine in force there will be lots of Cargo 200 coming back to Russia.  And for what?  To keep Ukraine a slave state of Russia.  I hope you do not take pride in that.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Anyways enough of me rambling, I'm really bored I promised someone a battle but my computer is acting up...  I really want to play 4.0 I heard you guys made it pretty good  but please please please sometime in the future add the ability to sit my poor Russkii and Ukrainian troops on top of those thin soviet "junk" as panzer would call it.  

  Yes, it's one of the things we would like to fix, but I'm not sure it is possible.  The game was written with only two possible configurations... mounted or dismounted.  We do not have any support for two different types of mounting.  I don't know if the code can be reshaped to support it.

Steve

[John Kettler]

General question

If I understand correctly (YMMV on that), Donetsk Airport was not tactically or strategically important. Since the (insert adjective/s here) would suggest otherwise, should I take this to mean this was essentially a nasty fight over an increasingly important to self-perception, popular opinion, maybe even international opinion, symbol? Otherwise, it seems to me to be a waste of men amd materiel on both sides. Sort of a micro Stalingrad, if you will.

Steve,

Am a bit perplexed by your response to VladimirTarasov regarding riding on top, since I thought tank riders were in? What he's saying seems to suggest they're not, but I should I bei interpreting his lament to mean he wants to put all the guys in the back on top, which I've seen myself in stills and video alike, yet the code won't let him. Please clarify this. Also, would you or someone else there please take a look at what I found when investigating the situation regarding buying CMx1 games for the benefit of my nephews? The way I came in makes it look like it's freeware, but take another route, and they're $15 each!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

If I understand correctly (YMMV on that), Donetsk Airport was not tactically or strategically important. Since the (insert adjective/s here) would suggest otherwise, should I take this to mean this was essentially a nasty fight over an increasingly important to self-perception, popular opinion, maybe even international opinion, symbol? Otherwise, it seems to me to be a waste of men amd materiel on both sides. Sort of a micro Stalingrad, if you will.

This is true. The legend of DAP mostly was boosted by media, so military command was forced to defend it to last man. Though, need to say, DAP was really important approx. to the end of October-November.

[Baneman]

7 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Am a bit perplexed by your response to VladimirTarasov regarding riding on top, since I thought tank riders were in? What he's saying seems to suggest they're not, but I should I bei interpreting his lament to mean he wants to put all the guys in the back on top, which I've seen myself in stills and video alike, yet the code won't let him. Please clarify this.

John Kettler

What Steve is saying is that you can get tank riders on a tank because that's the only place they can go.

But an IFV can have both crew and passengers inside, so how do you tell the passengers to get on top and not get inside ?

That is what the code can't handle... at this point in time anyway. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Baneman

[Kinophile]

19 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The DPR sent a detachment of fighters into LPR to support the counter actions.

This is that Motorola aspect, yes?

[VladimirTarasov]

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

the airport battle is nothing the DPR should be proud of.  It is nothing Russians should look at and say "this is a shining example of success".  It was a poorly fought battle which is considered a success only because the truth is not being told.

Well documented from DPR footage, the airport battle was majority fought by DPR units and not Russian troops. Of course there probably were lads that were in the advisory role, but from when I was keeping up with it, nothing "polite" about the forces there. It was a symbolic victory at the airport, as that was a part of the territories.

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

the DPR (and to a lessor extent LPR) forces are not capable of successful offensive action without significant direct aid from Russia.  Ukraine, on the other hand, is showing that it is a capable fighting force. 

Well of course, on paper the Ukrainian military is better than DPR and LPR. They have more numbers in equipment and in all other aspects. But still, DPR could put up a fight victorious or not, they have been improving and there are some battles where they have been able to hold areas on their own. The improvements I've seen from the DPR till now is that they have been increasing offensive abilities, with all the drills they're doing over there now. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

This further reinforces my opinion that if the war goes "hot" again Russia will have to invest even more forces than it did in summer 2014 just to keep DPR/LPR from collapsing.

Not more IMO. It depends on Russia's goal in such a scenario. If Ukraine goes ATO 3, and Russia would like to expand the territories then yes of course it will take more forces. But if it will be a goal to destroy the Ukrainian military and make minimal gains like last time, then the same amount of forces or even less could be used now, considering the separatists have been improving overall as well, and I believe with active reserves could muster 50,000 troops alone in those territories.  

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

They are mercenaries and mercenaries desert sinking ships. 

I don't think you're being fair, they are obviously not mercenaries. Majority of the forces will be and are locals, volunteers are there as well but even if you think they are foreigners most Russians go there thinking they are defending their own lands and their own people. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Ukrainians are well aware that Putin is the one behind all the murder and destruction in the Donbas as well as the theft of Crimea.

Not all Ukrainians but some are also aware that the ousting of their president was unconstitutional, maybe that's why majority decided to leave Ukraine in Crimea. Not so sure if Ukrainians are doing better than they were with Yanukovych. It's only normal to take up arms against something you had no say in. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I see indications that there's building resentment, distrust, and dislike of the Russian people as well as Putin.

Western Ukrainians as we call them, don't really like Russians either way. If they'll dislike us for protecting a legitimate Russian uprising (The breaking of Ukraine's constitution by illegally ousting a president that was legally elected by all means) then so be it. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Russia had considerable difficulties against a much poorer equipped, poorer lead, and poorer motivated Ukrainian forces than what exists today.  Certainly Ukraine will have more problems fighting full Russian units than it does Russian backed units, but Russia will have much more difficulty against Ukraine's forces compared to 2014 and even 2015.  If one looks at Debaltseve objectively, Russia has a lot of problems even then.

Yes, however still DPR units were experiencing more problems than Russian units (obvious reasons) Debaltsevo was still a total victory.  Anyways not to say Ukraine's military is a push over, but I'm still very much convinced from my own personal analysis and experiences in the military, that Russian forces are superior to Ukraine's by all means. And a major problem I happen to find with Western analysis of Russia's forces in Ukraine is that they assume DPR forces to be actual Russian ground forces. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

If Russia invades Ukraine in force there will be lots of Cargo 200 coming back to Russia.  And for what?  To keep Ukraine a slave state of Russia.  I hope you do not take pride in that.

I wouldn't take pride in a war against our historical brothers. I'm already disappointed that they let politics destroy our relations... Supporting far right groups during Maidan revolution... EU and US leaders shaking hands with them, approving them into power while breaking Ukraine's own constitution. It's a stable country now of course, all the dust settled down, but it's not looking good for them economically at all. 

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yes, it's one of the things we would like to fix, but I'm not sure it is possible.  The game was written with only two possible configurations... mounted or dismounted.  We do not have any support for two different types of mounting.  I don't know if the code can be reshaped to support it.

If it's not possible no shame on you of course  I know how hard coding can be, I can't even imagine how hard it is for game development. If you can reshape the code for it, that would be excellent. 

[HerrTom]

38 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Not all Ukrainians but some are also aware that the ousting of their president was unconstitutional, maybe that's why majority decided to leave Ukraine in Crimea. Not so sure if Ukrainians are doing better than they were with Yanukovych. It's only normal to take up arms against something you had no say in. 

This is probably getting way off topic, but I think Vlad hits a big point here.  I strongly doubt a lot of this would be happening if Yanukovych was ousted via an impeachment or any kind of legitimate election.  Since it happened via what was essentially a coup, it gave a lot more legitimacy to the secessionists in Crimea and the Donbass - and a hell of a lot better reason for Russia to step in.  There's no doubt that the Donbass was already very much opposed joining the EU for fear of the already poor region becoming even poorer since they can't modernize their mines and factories to EU standards.  In an election they can at least pretend that their voices were heard.

48 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Not all Ukrainians but some are also aware that the ousting of their president was unconstitutional, maybe that's why majority decided to leave Ukraine in Crimea.

I know a Crimean friend who is very happy to have avoided the draft!

49 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Yes, however still DPR units were experiencing more problems than Russian units (obvious reasons) Debaltsevo was still a total victory.  Anyways not to say Ukraine's military is a push over, but I'm still very much convinced from my own personal analysis and experiences in the military, that Russian forces are superior to Ukraine's by all means. And a major problem I happen to find with Western analysis of Russia's forces in Ukraine is that they assume DPR forces to be actual Russian ground forces. 

I think this ties into a lot of issues that we see in the civilian world's view.  As far as I can tell, the Russian military has had some embarrassingly bad performances in the past, in Chechnya, Chechnya again, Georgia, and now Ukraine - but the thing that's missed is that all of these wars had the Russians facing a much better equipped and organized foe than the US has in the past.  Combine that with the issues the Russians faced in each war - largely command and control, and you have the disasters we've seen.  Now in Ukraine we have poor views of the much improved Russian army since their performance is lumped in with their piecemeal application amongst the rebels against the most largest army in Eastern Europe.

On the original topic: Is there any more news about what's happening?  Has the Christmas/New Years cease fire in the area held?

[VladimirTarasov]

45 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

the Russian military has had some embarrassingly bad performances in the past, in Chechnya, Chechnya again

OT but I have too. Russia performed badly in the first Chechen war, the second Chechen war was way more successful. 

46 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Georgia

Airforce had embarrassingly lost 7 planes 2 of them to friendly fire. The ground forces performed really good against Georgian troops, even without the 3:1 Ratio in battles, and arguably Georgian troops had better equipment.

48 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Now in Ukraine we have poor views of the much improved Russian army since their performance is lumped in with their piecemeal application amongst the rebels against the most largest army in Eastern Europe.

Well... When the Russian army did perform in Ukraine (counter-offensives) they had good performance, but again they weren't able to operate in their full function for obvious reasons. 

49 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

On the original topic: Is there any more news about what's happening?  Has the Christmas/New Years cease fire in the area held?

Offensive from Ukraine has stopped, now it's just some fire coming out both sides.

[HerrTom]

Thanks for the clarifications Vladimir. Perhaps disaster was too strong a word to use.

[DMS]

What about DAP, it is a question of psy-ops, not regular unit operations. Ukrainian propaganda tried to make "Ukrainian Pavlov's house" with "cyborgs", but failed, Myth of superior morale and skill of Ukrainian soldiers was disproved. DNR propaganda didn't create myth of "cyborgs", didn't tell everyone about heroes, that were not heroes in fact. So their gains were more than losses. DNR commander "Giwi" humilates cyborg commander, what could be worse for Ukrainian morale? If Ukrainians would be more humble and wouldn't start propaganda campaign, that episode would be minor engagement on front line. So, tactically that victory was small, wasn't worth losses, but Ukrainians by themselves made it a big event.

[JUAN DEAG]

22 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

And my battalion remark was for the airport battle, where Ukrainians believe they were fighting hordes of Russian special forces and motor rifle troops, the best of the best lol... 

Sorry, I misunderstood.

22 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

So 75 brigades/regiments/detachment  present according to inform napalm? Did I miss the push for Kiev or?  Yes Russian military was and is in Donbas, but those numbers are complete BS by any regard. The evidence presented by the video needs to be re analyzed... From those units maybe individuals have been present in form of at most battalion/company/platoon/squad... And we need to verify every single unit infonapalm has put forth in that video to verify those units exist and aren't some BS units. 

The video never claims that the brigades are present in their entirety, that would be a silly claim. It's just a video listing all the units whose servicemen fought in Ukraine with photo evidence. (GRU officers like to use Instagram and forget to turn off location tracker )

3 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Not all Ukrainians but some are also aware that the ousting of their president was unconstitutional

The Maidan Revolution was extremely popular in Ukraine because both sides of the political spectrum were tired of a president that knew nothing but greed. Yanukovych stole over 26 billion from Ukrainian government, he was not a president, but a criminal and he was a criminal before rigging the election to become president in the Orange Revolution in 2004. He was a criminal, not some democratically elected angel. Maidan Revolution would not have happened if he did not try to extort money from Putin, during EU talks by attempting to create a Ramzan Kadyrov scenario. His greed was his downfall.

2 hours ago, HerrTom said:

I strongly doubt a lot of this would be happening if Yanukovych was ousted via an impeachment or any kind of legitimate election.

Impossible, Ukrainian government was one of the most corrupt on the planet. Yanukovych fled by his own choice (along with all the money he stole from the people) when Interpol wanted his head for massacring protesters.

3 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Western Ukrainians as we call them, don't really like Russians either way.

This is a population that does not exist, just Russia trying to stoke nationalistic sentiment by making a Ukrainian "boogeyman". This can be seen with Russian state-media making borderline racist statements about Ukrainians and faking "Ukrainian terrorist plots in Crimea". The Russian government puts a lot of effort into making it look like Ukrainians hate Russian people, this is far from the truth. Ukrainians hate Putin.

2 hours ago, HerrTom said:

Since it happened via what was essentially a coup

False. His greedy past of stealing hats as child, laundering businesses during collapse of Soviet Union, and siphoning money from Ukrainian government returned in the form of him trying to extort money from Putin by making moves toward EU, but that backfired and he lost his throne and source of income (Ukrainian budget). The Russian "it was a coup" narrative is false because he tried to intimidate protesters by using Berkut secret police to make people disappear and have their bodies found naked and beaten in random woods. His secret police intimidation tactics culminated in Berkut massacring 100 protesters, after that he fled out of fear of foreign intervention along with most of his stolen wealth.

2 hours ago, HerrTom said:

secessionists in Crimea

The election was rigged by every international standard. Votes were cast by Russian troops, not the people. Every single country on the planet, except Russia, recognizes Crimea as Ukrainian land.

46 minutes ago, DMS said:

"cyborgs"

This name was given to the Ukrainian defenders by the separatists. Ukrainians didn't create that name for themselves.

4 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

maybe that's why majority decided to leave Ukraine in Crimea

As most polls reveal, this was because they thought they would have better economic situation in Russia (no Yanukovych stealing billions). Also, because resistance was futile; they saw how Crimean Tatars were treated by Russian government when they tried to resist the occupation. UN recently did a vote to investigate the brutalization of Crimean Tatars by Russian government, Russia voted against it, can't imagine why. Thankfully, most Crimean Tatars were able to flee to Europe in time, others just pretend to be pro-Putin.

3 hours ago, HerrTom said:

There's no doubt that the Donbass was already very much opposed joining the EU for fear of the already poor region becoming even poorer since they can't modernize their mines and factories to EU standards.  In an election they can at least pretend that their voices were heard.

They were able to vote for next Ukrainian president. There were plenty of anti-EU candidates. Putin doesn't want people know that, of course.

[JUAN DEAG]

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Airforce had embarrassingly lost 7 planes 2 of them to friendly fire. The ground forces performed really good against Georgian troops, even without the 3:1 Ratio in battles, and arguably Georgian troops had better equipment.

Georgian army had many of the same problems as the Russian army, except like 10 times worse. Especially, command and control.

[Machor]

19 minutes ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Every single country on the planet, except Russia, recognizes Crimea as Ukrainian land.

There are eight countries that recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, these being Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea

 

[HerrTom]

25 minutes ago, Machor said:

There are eight countries that recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, these being Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea

 

Shouldn't that be 9?  At least, one would hope Russia considers Crimea part of Russia!  

[VladimirTarasov]

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Sorry, I misunderstood.

No of course no problem

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

The Maidan Revolution was extremely popular in Ukraine because both sides of the political spectrum were tired of a president that knew nothing but greed. Yanukovych stole over 26 billion from Ukrainian government, he was not a president, but a criminal and he was a criminal before rigging the election to become president in the Orange Revolution in 2004. He was a criminal, not some democratically elected angel. Maidan Revolution would not have happened if he did not try to extort money from Putin, during EU talks by attempting to create a Ramzan Kadyrov scenario. His greed was his downfall.

Without arguing into detail; has it gotten better or worse corruption wise? Most Ukrainian buddies of mine will say it's gotten worse... Government officials are more corrupt than ever now. The people are suffering more than they use too. Anyways; you argue that the rebellion and Crimeans voting to be a part of Russia is unconstitutional where as they same could be said for the coupe... So I don't know if this is just double standard or just coloring to make Russia look like the only bad guy there. It's really getting tiring being called Kremlin bot or Russian hacker because of some truths that people can't accept. But anyways let's stop the political arguments as they lead to nowhere because it's basically double standards back and forth.

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

This is a population that does not exist, just Russia trying to stoke nationalistic sentiment by making a Ukrainian "boogeyman". 

Actually the Russian government didn't make this nationalistic sentiment lol... Any Ukrainian I know from the east actually says this. So no, please no more "Kremlin super plan" .... God it's really agonizing. 

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

The election was rigged by every international standard. Votes were cast by Russian troops, not the people. 

WHAT! LOL! please man not this far... Go speak to any Crimean about this and they'll laugh at you. 

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

This name was given to the Ukrainian defenders by the separatists. Ukrainians didn't create that name for themselves.

Yes they did give it to their selves. Now separatist terrorists from mongloid Russia use it as a joke. 

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

They were able to vote for next Ukrainian president. There were plenty of anti-EU candidates. Putin doesn't want people know that, of course.

Hmm... no. If you really think Mr.Poroshenko is not corrupt then nothing I can say. 

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Georgian army had many of the same problems as the Russian army, except like 10 times worse. Especially, command and control.

Not very true mi amigo es falso. They had the upper hand in command and control tactically... Their brigades deployed forward into combat were trained by NATO countries, and were operating good equipment. Tactically they were equal to or depending on the unit in better command and control, until of course Russian units broke through their defenses and ran through their lines. Once command structure gets smashed they break apart either way. 

There's a bunch of analysis of the war, you could see that the Georgians weren't actually lacking equipment wise much. Of course in the overall picture Georgia stood absolutely no chance against an army that had a million soldiers at the time.

[Battlefront.com]

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Without arguing into detail; has it gotten better or worse corruption wise? Most Ukrainian buddies of mine will say it's gotten worse... Government officials are more corrupt than ever now.

This is not confirmed by other sources, but for sure Ukraine is still a very corrupt place and will continue to be so for many, many years.  The thing to keep in mind is what with Yanukovych and a Russian approved successor, there was 0.00% hope of things getting better.  With Maidan there are a lot of unfulfilled promises, but there is now at least a chance of improvement.  Not an easy road, but at least they are started down it
.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

The people are suffering more than they use too.

This is true, but it is not necessarily because of Maidan.  The corrupt Yanukvoych government was about to collapse the Ukrainian economy if it had remained in power.  Therefore, what is going on now was going to happen no matter what.

On top of that Russia's war against Ukraine is costing Ukraine a lot of money to fight.  They also have lost industrial resources stolen by Russia (coal, oil, and manufacturing equipment for example).  Additionally, the trade war between Russia and Ukraine is bad for both economies, but a bit worse for Ukraine.

To say that things are bad only because Yanukovych was ousted is unsupportable by facts.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Anyways; you argue that the rebellion and Crimeans voting to be a part of Russia is unconstitutional where as they same could be said for the coupe...

It was a rigged election under military occupation after years of Russian propaganda and opposition organization.  The result was expected by us years ago because it was clear that is what Russia was engineering years in advance.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Actually the Russian government didn't make this nationalistic sentiment lol... Any Ukrainian I know from the east actually says this. So no, please no more "Kremlin super plan" .... God it's really agonizing. 

But still true   Russia has been working on this for many, many years.  Even before the Soviet Union broke up.  A deliberate plan to control neighboring states with ethnic Russians.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

WHAT! LOL! please man not this far... Go speak to any Crimean about this and they'll laugh at you. 

Sure, but it still is true.  It was independently verified at the time it happened.  I remember interviews with people running elections when reporters saw Russian citizens voting.  They asked the officials, "why are you allowing Russian citizens to vote".  The answer was "why shouldn't they have a say?".

Plus, it doesn't matter.  The vote was rigged and anybody wanting to remain a part of Ukraine was not allowed a vote.  So the election, no matter how many or how few Russian citizens voted, has no legitimacy.

Like the war in Ukraine, you have a lot to learn about what happened in Crimea.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Hmm... no. If you really think Mr.Poroshenko is not corrupt then nothing I can say. 

The point is the elections were free and fair.  A "coup" doesn't allow such things to happen.  In fact, the "coup" government allowed for freer elections than are allowed in Russia.  Whether Poroshenko is corrupt or not is irrelevant in terms of the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Not very true mi amigo es falso. They had the upper hand in command and control tactically... Their brigades deployed forward into combat were trained by NATO countries, and were operating good equipment. Tactically they were equal to or depending on the unit in better command and control, until of course Russian units broke through their defenses and ran through their lines. Once command structure gets smashed they break apart either way. 

We've been over this.  The Georgian military was in a state of transition.  It still had a long ways to go in terms of being even close to NATO standards.  Maybe in some ways it was better than Russian forces in some ways, but Russia's superior numbers made sure this didn't matter.

40 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

There's a bunch of analysis of the war, you could see that the Georgians weren't actually lacking equipment wise much. Of course in the overall picture Georgia stood absolutely no chance against an army that had a million soldiers at the time.

Exactly.  They stood no chance.

Steve

[JUAN DEAG]

4 hours ago, Machor said:

There are eight countries that recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, these being Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea

They recognized the validity of the referendum, that was what was voted on in UN resolution. Again, none of these nations recognize Crimea as being Russian territory, at least not publicly. My statement still stands.

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2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

It's really getting tiring being called Kremlin bot or Russian hacker because of some truths that people can't accept.

I'm not calling you anything, and I accept all valid criticism.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Hmm... no. If you really think Mr.Poroshenko is not corrupt then nothing I can say. 

They could vote in election if they traveled from occupied territories and presented documents proving that they are Ukrainian citizens, unfortunately Crimeans could not vote because of two-way land blockade of Crimea . I never said Poroshenko was not corrupt. He lied to his supporters about giving up his chocolate factory when he became president and during election he used his ownership of one of the largest TV channel in the country to paint his competitors in a bad light and promote him, similarly to how Hillary Clinton used media to push her agenda in the US election. On top of that, he has failed to fulfill many of the promises of the Maidan Revolution. The likelihood of him being reelected in 2019 is nonexistent.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Actually the Russian government didn't make this nationalistic sentiment lol... Any Ukrainian I know from the east actually says this. So no, please no more "Kremlin super plan" .... God it's really agonizing. 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get across. Let me try again, I'm saying that the Russian government is using it's access to all TV news to create an image of Ukraine as an enemy of Russia. All you have to do is turn on Russian TV to see exactly what I'm talking about. I can PM you videos of Russian TV to prove my point.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

WHAT! LOL! please man not this far... Go speak to any Crimean about this and they'll laugh at you. 

God, not literally! That was bit of a miscommunication.  I meant that Russian troops were occupying the peninsula, Russian flags were hanging over government buildings, etc. and at that point everyone knew that Crimea would be Sudetenland-ed no matter what the population thought. The referendum was an attempt to add at least some legitimacy to the annexation.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Yes they did give it to their selves. Now separatist terrorists from mongloid Russia use it as a joke. 

Separatist called them that because they were fighting day and night like they were part robot, hence 'cyborg', and coup-starting fascist Ukrainians eagerly adopted the name.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Not very true mi amigo es falso. They had the upper hand in command and control tactically... Their brigades deployed forward into combat were trained by NATO countries, and were operating good equipment. Tactically they were equal to or depending on the unit in better command and control, until of course Russian units broke through their defenses and ran through their lines. Once command structure gets smashed they break apart either way. 

There's a bunch of analysis of the war, you could see that the Georgians weren't actually lacking equipment wise much. Of course in the overall picture Georgia stood absolutely no chance against an army that had a million soldiers at the time.

No, es verdad señor Vladimir. Of course some units had some token basic training by NATO advisors, but the overwhelming majority had little training, certainly not against a simulated 58th Army. Furthermore, the Georgian Army was not even expecting to fight Russia. And no, Georgian command and control was extremely poor; many units had to communicate by cell phone, reserves were mismanaged and botched on a completely different level, and otherwise mighty Georgian AA was plagued by poor coordination. Russia had problems, but Georgia had problems. You're definitely right about the equipment, but in the end it really didn't matter.

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, JUAN DEAG said:

You're definitely right about the equipment, but in the end it really didn't matter.

Yup.  Let's just remember how much equipment matters compared to other factors.  The Iraqi Army had Abrams tanks and ISIS had Mazda trucks.  And yet ISIS overran large parts of Iraq, captured (and slaughtered) thousands of Iraqi soldiers, and wound up with the Abrams tanks.

Steve