Why do mortars have almost no ammo, yet howitzers have gobs? Also...

[John Kettler]

I absolutely don't understand this one at all, unless there are major typos. I fervently hope so! Every howitzer and howitzer mortar in CMBS, whether towed or tracked, has north of 100 rounds showing on its placard, yet even the lightest mortar, the US 60 mm, has only 22, the 81mm 15 and the 120 mm a whole 6. 6! Looks to me as though not enough ammo is provided for H&I, never mind do or die FPF. These statements are made based on what's shown for each weapon in the CMBS Game Manual. If that's all the boom you get with mortars, I believe I'll buy gun howitzers.  

 

Also,it would help if the various artillery and mortar units for purchase showed the total round count. In checking the current RL situation with US SP mortars, of which I shockingly see none to buy in CMBS, I was fascinated to see that Strykers w/120 have 81s for dismounted ops and that the ones with 81s have 60s.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

Edited August 13, 2015 by John Kettler

[IronCat60]

Ok first off lets get an idea why this is portrayed this way.

 

The Stryker shows only 60 for the 120mm and the "B" model Stryker is the first to allow firing from a mount within the vehicle instead of dismounting it first. According to material available the Stryker can also carry a 81mm or 60mm mortar in addition to the 120mm and uses one of these additional mortars in a dismounted position. The number of rounds available to this secondary system seem to be a closely guarded secret because I cannot find any clue as to the basic load allotment.

 

So with a well trained crew they can get 16 rounds out in the first minuet and 4 rounds per minuet of sustained fire after that with out over heating the barrel. So that comes out to 12 minuets of total firing time. Usually enough to make the enemy take your intentions seriously.

 

Each Stryker infantry Brigade has a total number of 10 mortar carriers. So if fired in two groups of 5 carriers each, this gives you 24 minuets of fire with time for the carrier group not firing time to pull back and reload. Not to forget the combined total of 60 rounds x 10 carriers gives you 600 rounds in real life Stryker Brigades. But this is assuming all carriers are assigned one target. Something rarely done in real life

 

After the Brigade Commanders mission intent is assigned to each company and the support needed for each company is assigned, how do we come to a rational number of carriers left at Brigade level to assist any fire mission needed to be done. This would be a more realistic approach to fire support. But selecting additional carriers in the game costs points. To allow a true reflection of additional "free support" the game would have to decide in a random manner and  I imagine that coding this in to the game would be a monumental task.

 

So for right now we are stuck with a weapons system that relies on numbers to be effective and those numbers are not truly available.

Edited August 13, 2015 by mech.gato

[Codename Duchess]

On-map mortars, which is what I presume you were looking at **I presume you didn't include the trucks, hence the low round counts which match your given values**:
2x60mm mortars (mortar section from a rifle company) - 48 HE rounds .  No supply humvees that I found, so they're hoofing them all, hence the low count.  Really at 6 rounds per man, a good amount.  93 points.
2x81mm mortars (from mortar platoon) - Includes 2x humvees for transportation and supply.  If you leave them near the trucks = 140 HE rounds.  293 points
2x120mm mortars (from mortar platoon) - Includes 2x humvees for transportation and supply.  If you leave them near the trucks = 84 HE rounds.  312 points
2x120mm mortars (Strykers) - 2 x M1129 Stryker Mortar Carriers.  50 HE rounds per vehicle (cannot transfer) = 100 HE rounds total.  360 points for the section (including an extra LMTV and section leader)

**I presume you didn't include the trucks, hence the low round counts which match your given values**

Off-map mortars
2x60mm mortars - 100 HE rounds, 61 points
2x81mm mortars - 100 HE rounds, 156 points
2x120mm mortars - 50 HE rounds, 166 points

Off-map Artillery
3x105mm Towed Guns - 105 HE rounds, 350 points
3x155mm Towed Guns - 180 HE rounds, 1164 points
3x155mm Self-Propelled Guns - 117 HE rounds, 771 points.

All point values were randomized "typical" values so there's some wiggle room.  With off map support, you tend to save a little if you by 4 tubes vs 2 (i.e. 350 for 2 or 675 for 4).  I imagine Russian and Ukrainian prices follow the same trend, if not the values.

Looking at this, I can't from a point perspective see the value in on map mortars, especially with 60mm.  I guess there's a slightly shorter time between the request and the fire mission, but I don't know if it's worth it.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Codename Duchess

[John Kettler]

Guys,

 

I was/am buying a 6K point range force for a QB and toggled "Artillery." Since I feel safe in stating the M109A7 isn't on-board artillery, I believe a reasonable presumption is that the listed artillery assets are off map. If they are, then why are such ridiculously low ammo amounts for the mortars shown on the placards? Where do the numbers presented above come from. I don't at all understand how the ammo counts presented above are determined. Shouldn't this stuff all be in the Artillery section? Seems to me a great deal of FS weaponry simply isn't rostered. Hard to buy it if you don't know it exists or the real round count. While I'm heartened that, per the above, at least some of the mortars have reasonable ammo loads, I'm in many ways more confused than I was before. Also, am I to infer the artillery placards are for sections/half batteries? Given the apparent reality that a great deal of firepower isn't listed in the Artillery tab, perhaps I should gear up for expecting a 14" gun on a Hummer?!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

Looking at this, I can't from a point perspective see the value in on map mortars, especially with 60mm.  I guess there's a slightly shorter time between the request and the fire mission, but I don't know if it's worth it.

 

On-map mortars have several advantages over off-map.

 

1) Faster response. Times vary, but when called in by a fire support team (regular experience) in a FIST all US on-map mortars have a 2 minute response while off-map are 4 min for 60mm and 81mm and 5 min for 120mm (again, times vary and the displayed time are rounded off from the exact times)

2) Each individual on-map tube can be tasked with a separate fire mission while the the off-map section or platoon is limited to one at a time.

3) On-map mortars can use direct lay.

 

At first glance the on-map 60s do appear to be an especially bad deal on a point per round basis, but I suspect their excellent suitability for direct lay is the reason. They can move at Quick speed with a full ammo load while the 81s and 120s are limited to Move until they expend some ammo. They also have the shortest deploy and pack-up times. In fact I feel that the 120s deploy and pack-up times of 1.4 and 1.5 minutes respectively make them impractical for directly lay use which is probably why the per round cost of 120s is almost the same for on-map and off-map.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Someone explain to John the difference between individual team and shared ammo counts and where to find the latter in the UI.

 

Actually, John, I don't know where you are getting 6 rounds for the 120s. The dismounted teams carry 16 (14 HE, 2 XM395). Are you sure you have the 1.03 patch?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

 

The ammo count I provided is taken directly from the M120 120 mm Mortar placard on Page 92 of the CMBS Manual. As for my copy of CMBS being patched to 1.03, I just checked, and it definitely is. To be clear, in saying what I have, I'm working from the Artillery tab under "Formations," not "Specialist Teams." I miss the simplicity of buying FS under CMx1. IIRC, a German 105 le FH 18 battery clearly displayed in the Buy list as 4 guns and 40 rounds. YMMV on my memory. What I'm certain of is that it was very straightforward buying FS in CMx1. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited August 13, 2015 by John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

The ammo count I provided is taken directly from the M120 120 mm Mortar placard on Page 92 of the CMBS Manual.

 

Don't rely on the manual for on-map ammo mortar counts. The pics in the manual were made while the game was in beta. At one point 120mm teams were only carrying 6 rounds but that was changed before the game was even released.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

 

We seem to be talking past each other. As I said earlier, I was operating under the Artillery tab set to Formations. I believe, since the M109A7 is there, the artillery is of the off map persuasion.  I've not looked into artillery at all under Specialist Teams. If the ammo numbers in the manual aren't to be trusted, please say where the figures are for both on map and off map ammo counts. I think this is something I should have a fair degree of familiarity with so I can buy the right FS.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[womble]

...please say where the figures are for both on map and off map ammo counts....

Like all the titles, it's on the pane in the support menu once you're in the setup phase.

 

And nowhere else. Which is, as you appreciate, not very helpful. Much information could be provided in the force selection pane, but it's not. There have been efforts by admirable people to tabulate the rounds available to all the modules available in other Families (and how many minutes of fire you get at a given weight of bombardment), but I've not seen a thread with such a table for BS.

[Codename Duchess]

All of the numbers I obtained were by ordering the named sections in QB (be it from the artillery tab, specialist teams, or formations), and visually confirming in the 3D world. Those are the number of rounds you will have available for the given weapons. Note again that for all on map weapons besides the Strykers, ammo is shared between tubes if they're in close proximity.

Again, these numbers were obtained by ordering units and then actually checking them in the 3D world. I didn't pull any of it out of any bodily cavity.

And you can actually see ammo for on map mortars outside the support placard. It's listed where ammo is normally listed left of the command options. Same goes for their support trucks.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Codename Duchess

[John Kettler]

womble,

 

Thank you for the explanation, and I'd love to know how such critical information wound up effectively entombed. Strikes me as being a profoundly poor decision.

 

Codename Duchess,

 

In no way was I accusing you of extracting the info from the well known prisoner hiding spot. All I knew was that you were presenting artillery formation breakdowns (which I discovered are available on the pane) and ammo counts in an authoritative manner. I merely wanted to know whence they came, for I was under the now clearly erroneous impression that the placards shown in the CMBS Manual were correct. It appears they aren't even close to being right. IMO, BFC needs to urgently update the Manual so that the CMBS players have the FS types, formation sizes, tube counts and ammo loadouts instantly available without going through all the work you did. I find it pretty outrageous that you had to stand on your head to obtain information which should, IMO, be already built into the FS buy option lists. I don't understand why this wasn't there to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, I consider the info to be essential to intelligently buying FS for a QB or, for that, matter, in building a scenario or campaign, not that I can do either of the last two!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[MOS:96B2P]

On-map mortars have several advantages over off-map.

 

1) Faster response. Times vary, but when called in by a fire support team (regular experience) in a FIST all US on-map mortars have a 2 minute response while off-map are 4 min for 60mm and 81mm and 5 min for 120mm (again, times vary and the displayed time are rounded off from the exact times)

2) Each individual on-map tube can be tasked with a separate fire mission while the the off-map section or platoon is limited to one at a time.

3) On-map mortars can use direct lay.

 

At first glance the on-map 60s do appear to be an especially bad deal on a point per round basis, but I suspect their excellent suitability for direct lay is the reason. They can move at Quick speed with a full ammo load while the 81s and 120s are limited to Move until they expend some ammo. They also have the shortest deploy and pack-up times. In fact I feel that the 120s deploy and pack-up times of 1.4 and 1.5 minutes respectively make them impractical for directly lay use which is probably why the per round cost of 120s is almost the same for on-map and off-map.

 

Thanks Vanir.

 

This is a very nice summary of the advantages and disadvantages of the different mortar systems.  (To include on map vs off map)  I didn't know the 81mm mortar teams were limited to Move until some ammo was expended.  It always impresses me how much detail and thought goes into this game.  

[RockinHarry]

One of the latest game additions I really like, is the addition of ammo crates, not just from the new supply trucks, but any vehicle that you start onmap in dismounted status. Mostly a scenario maker thing and useless for QB (I guess). Need a battle situation simulated that has onmap mortars, that are not to move, but have way above average ammo at hand, choose one the organic heavy weapons/mortar coy from certain mot. formations and place the trucks (or whatever) in dismounted status nearby. The real good thing with these, is that they do apply for automated ammo sharing.

In the screenshot, there´s other single mortars outside the screen, as well as their ammo crates. Thus the odd HE figure (due to ammo sharing). The particular crate unit has normally additional 66 HE and a couple more WP, for each single mortar (in CMBN).

[womble]

Oo. I didn't know that Supply Dumps were created with any vehicle you start out Dismounted. Thought it was only Supply Platoons. Am I right in thinking the vehicle doesn't have to be part of the normal ammo-sharing orglevel for it to be able to share out once it's a Supply Dump?

[John Kettler]

How do you get on-map stuff using the Formations setting under the Artiilery tab? Or do you have to buy individual items under Specialist Teams? Always looking for new ways of doing things, especially if they're better than what I was doing before!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Baneman]

Oo. I didn't know that Supply Dumps were created with any vehicle you start out Dismounted. Thought it was only Supply Platoons. Am I right in thinking the vehicle doesn't have to be part of the normal ammo-sharing orglevel for it to be able to share out once it's a Supply Dump?

That's correct - just remember that it doesn't work in QB's

[womble]

That's correct - just remember that it doesn't work in QB's

Yeah. You can't set vehicles as "Dismounted" in QBs. Gotta loot them in the setup phase... And it's rarely worth buying another whole formation just for more ammo, because of the HQ-overhead and the Formation fee. Might as well buy more tubes as well for the flexibility, which isn't a consideration when setting up a scenario.

 

How do you get on-map stuff using the Formations setting under the Artiilery tab? Or do you have to buy individual items under Specialist Teams? Always looking for new ways of doing things, especially if they're better than what I was doing before!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

You can't. The people talking about on-map stuff are either misunderstanding your problem, or being helpful by expanding upon those initial misapprehensions.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yeah. You can't set vehicles as "Dismounted" in QBs. Gotta loot them in the setup phase... And it's rarely worth buying another whole formation just for more ammo, because of the HQ-overhead and the Formation fee. Might as well buy more tubes as well for the flexibility, which isn't a consideration when setting up a scenario.

 

You can buy supply platoons in QBs, although they do not have the option of carrying mortar ammo. They are of limited utility IMO with the exception that they are the only significant source of 7.92mm Kurz.

[A Canadian Cat]

Also note that at one of the difficulty levels the supply depots stop being supply depots and instead the ammo is distributed around to your forces.

[akd]

Also note that at one of the difficulty levels the supply depots stop being supply depots and instead the ammo is distributed around to your forces.

 

Pretty sure this only happens within units that have attached vehicles converted into dumps.  If you purchase a supply platoon and turn it into dumps, the ammo is simply lost on lower difficulty levels (which of course presents a big problem for scenario designers).