Looks like Many WW2 Movies Coming!

[Lanzfeld]

Hey, "The Hobbit" comes out in december. I can't wait!

Also....there is a woman in the submarine in "Das Boot" in one of the scenes by accident. It is the sound girl. Looks like a cute blond. It is when the sub hits the bottom and the captain is looking at the depth meter.

[noob]

Consuming an entertainment product is not the same as allowing an entertainer to manipulate your feelings willy-nilly.

What the hell does willy nilly mean ?

What words would you use to describe CM's manipulation of your feelings ?

It is possible to view or listen critically. All it takes is engaging one's mind. In my opinion, far too many people fail to do this.

Making the statement "far too many people fail to do this" exposes your lack of mental engagement.

I hope I am not one of them.

Lol....what's with the false modesty, your have been stating that you are mentally superior to the "masses", now you hope you are not one of them, at least be consistent !

[noob]

Indeed, that's one of the reasons I bought CM. It teaches me about a subject I am interested in. Which is, matter of fact, one of the reasons this is good forum. There are more than a few very intelligent people here, and I'm not talking just book-learning.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[Bigduke6]

noob,

For the purposes of this discussion, I'll define "people" as English-speakers with enough income to improve their level of knowledge if they choose. For general purposes, this is a developed world definition.

I know education when I see it. It's when critical thinking functions.

I'd say any one who has access to the internet, and speaks English, and remains uninformed, is doing so inentionally. There just about is nothing that an average person needs to know to live his life, that he cannot find out himself. There is no reason to take politicians or media at face value, there is no reason to accept the opinion of an expert just because he's an expert, there is no reason to let any one do your thinking for you. The information is out there. All you have to do, is winnow the wheat from the chaff.

Which brings us back to critical thinking.

People in supposedly democratic countries are willing to send their own people to other countries to fight and die in wars, and kill people in those countries as well, and at the same time find a war movie entertaining because it has big explosions and a hero they can identify with. If that's not turning off your brain, then I don't know what is. Real lives of others are more important than personal entertainment.

However, if one lacks critical thinking, then one might well believe one's personal gratification, and indeed entertainment, is paramount. On a more basic level, a person like that might well start thinking war is cool and the bad guys are whoever the authorities say are the bad guys, and the bad guys deserve to die.

People like that, if they are in the majority in a functioning democracy, will select politicians that cater to personal gratification of short-term goals simply grasped by citizens, rather than politicians that would cater to long-term goals whose choice and execution requires informed debate. If the people are simple and uninformed, they will seek out politicians that appeal on a simple level. One of the most simple appeals is "I will lead you against those bad guys."

The most successful politician, in those circumstances, would be a very handsome person who was engaging, successful, and skilled at communicating with the least common denominator. He should couch his appeals in easy-to-understand terms, and who avoided voicing complicated answers to complicated language. Were he to present himself in a complex manner, the electorate literally would not understand him, and certainly would not vote for him.

So in answer to your question, how come the educated politicians can't do anything, I would answer, a simple electorate gets performance from its representatives it deserves.

What evidence do you have to make your assertions about the level of education of over 3.5 billion people ? (given a global population of 7 billion, which would make 3.6 billion most people)

Also, what do you regard as an "education" ?

So you are basing your opinion on appearances, so what "appears" to you to make you say that people are perfectly happy in their ignorance ?

Does dismissing the individuality of over 3.5 billion people not strike you as worrying ?

One more thing, the people that run the world and f###k it up are all educated, so where do you get the idea that education is the saviour of mankind ?

[noob]

As i haven't the time to spare to go through the travesty of critical thinking that was your last post, i will just say this.........i strongly advise you to change your forum name to Richard Heinz........why ?........because you are 57 varieties of Dick !!!

[Steiner14]

Steiner, believe it or not, human beings have different personalities, so to be crude to make a point, some are motivated by feelings, some by thinking, you are obviously a thinking type, but what you fail to grasp is that your type will generally be bewildered by feeling types, and vice versa

That's the reason why the masses are controlled by the ones that use their intellect. Most people are consumers and react only to the feelings that are induced in them.

This thread itself is a perfect example: even if it is explained how they are targets of manipulation by movies, they insist on consuming and even call the rationale behind the making of movies "paranoia"...

Steiner, I agree 100 per cent with what you say about the idiot consuming masses. I would say the only antidote is education, either in schools or real life.

But I very much disagree with you on this:

The chain of command works in most militaries pretty well as long as there is no stress. The moment you add stress, the chain of command starts deteriorating. It doesn't take much, you deprive of private of sleep for a day or two and where he might not lip back to a sergeant if he was fresh, he will when he's groggy.

My argument was referring to the so called "excellent" movie SPR where because of mood, feelings, emotions commands are denied. But since this is typical for 99% of the movies from Hollywood, obviously most people do not even recognize it anymore:

Hollywood has been forming the perception of reality. The best proove how effective the propaganda is, if the consumers do not recognize the real world anymore, but believe the IMAGE the propaganda creates in their minds was reality.

On another scale the same but more intense effect can be observed at young male RTS-junkies.

The mass of the people don't even recognize, that Hollywood and the entertainment-industry follows a political agenda. What, an entertainment movie as a hidden brainwahsing program? You are paranoid!

People have not the slightest clue about the power of media and how they are working and the cluelessness about movies and their mechanisms in this thread is only evidence for thier power.

One of the problems about war movies is, most of the people watching them have not been subjected to the stresses wars create. Movie audiences are generally young, and those that have limited experience in life have even less of a yardstick to judge, how men react under stress.

Here you mention one of the typical stupidities of Hollywood movies in general, not only war movies. No matter if western, war, drama, thriller, horror.

The hero doesn't show real stress or fear. Women, the losers or victims are allowed to show fear, but not the hero.

But in reality heros have the same fear to be hurt or die as everybody! But they are strong enough to overcome this fear and keep it in check and therefore act where others fail.

Good movies are not a ridiculous cartoon of reality like in Hollywood movies. Good movies show REAL people. Real people have real characters. And real characters show a realistic behaviour. No black and no white, just shades of grey.

Hollywood is pure commercialization and propaganda: black and white, simple, stupid, primitive, gore, tits.

[noob]

That's the reason why the masses are controlled by the ones that use their intellect. Most people are consumers and react only to the feelings that are induced in them.

Reductionist drivel.

[Erwin]

Hey, what about dem Yankees..?

[noob]

That's the reason why the masses are controlled by the ones that use their intellect. Most people are consumers and react only to the feelings that are induced in them.

Actually i would argue the opposite, i would say that most people know that politicians are willing to lie to them, and they, and the media, try to manipulate them.

But it's all very well me saying that, how could it be indicated objectively, well voter turnout is often cited as an indicator of the satisfaction the population have with the system, which brings me to the US, arguably a country with one of the most obtrusive and powerful media systems in the world, and according to Wiki, voter turnout has fluctuated between 50 and 63% from 1960 to 2010, which means just over 100 million people in the US have not been buying the message for 50 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2011-12-22/voters-political-parties/52171688/1

[ZPB II]

Whoa, looks like I've missed the party.

Simply reading this last page amuses me greatly. I haven't had time to dig deep, but am I seeing people being called names for their opinions regarding consumption culture?

Funny stuff, you can call me a dick too because I hate consumption culture and I look down upon the people who mindlessly consume it. Yes, that's right. If I meet a person whose focal point in life is Jersey Shore or Big Brother and this reflects his values in life, I will follow my natural, evolution granted instinct and adjust my reaction to him accordingly.

If that makes me an elitist jerk, I don't really care.

EDIT: To stay on topic, I had a quick glance at the three trailers and they looked abysmal. Truly signs of their times. I feel sorry for mankind, all the pain and suffering that is war is turned into hollow mass products. It stains the memories of good men and women.

I watched them again and I'm having a really hard time figuring out whether they are parodies about how many cliches you can cram into a short trailer or actual, authentic trailers. I'm especially loving the soundtracks, same notes and patterns feature prominently in 95% of war movie soundtracks. (a statistic straight out of my fancy white fedora)

[xian]

I must say that it's quite fun sitting down here amongst the 'great unwashed', and looking up at noob and bigduke6 fight it out on their high horses.

[noob]

Yes, that's right. If I meet a person whose focal point in life is Jersey Shore or Big Brother and this reflects his values in life, I will follow my natural, evolution granted instinct and adjust my reaction to him accordingly.

That's fine, but do these people actually exist in the numbers people like you are saying, i don't think they do, in fact, ironically, i think you and your ilk are reacting to media constructs of consumers.

[noob]

I must say that it's quite fun sitting down here amongst the 'great unwashed', and looking up at noob and bigduke6 fight it out on their high horses.

I'm trying to drag him off his horse and join the floor dwellers like me

[ZPB II]

That's fine, but do these people actually exist in the numbers people like you are saying, i don't think they do, in fact, ironically, i think you and your ilk are reacting to a media construct of the average person.

I think they do, but this is merely my opinion. But it is an opinion that I base on my daily interactions with people. I like to keep my finger on the pulse of modern culture, it is part of my education and my career. Ignorance fills the streets, schools, cafeterias, newspaper comment sections, Facebook, Twitter...

It has a lot to do with the modern tempo. I think it's unhealthy. Everything today has to be faster. Faster scenes, faster cuts. Hurry up! Preorder Medal of Honor: Warfighter so you can enter Battlefield 4 beta! Run! Gun! This leads to attention deficits. People aren't given time to think things through. Many popular consumer products don't require critical thinking, because there's no time for that.

Someone with a tinfoil hat might propose that this is intentional, to feed more consumerism. It's rare to talk to a person who actually wants to increase the tempo of his life. There's a reason why downshifting is popular, and it's not just because it's hip and chic.

In real-life, I get along with people pretty well. I like to think that it's not a big loss if you treat a person nicely even, if in secret you think to yourself that the person represents such a level of willingful ignorance that it's almost borderline evil.

[noob]

Funny stuff, you can call me a dick too because I hate consumption culture and I look down upon the people who mindlessly consume it

If you read about the ideas of Edward Bernays, you will find that there is no such thing as mindless consumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Also if people do respond to the media it's because of Mr Bernays, and if his theories are true, getting annoyed with the people it works on is like getting annoyed at someone who has been hypnotised by a hypnotist.

Also if you care so much about living in the Matrix, stop wasting your time on CM and smash the system, or you could just sit in your Ivory Tower feeling superior.

People like you, that can see through the lies and don't act, are worse than the people that consume.

If that makes me an elitist jerk, I don't really care.

I know you don't care, you like it.

[Steiner14]

Actually i would argue the opposite, i would say that most people know that politicians are willing to lie to them, and they, and the media, try to manipulate them.

But it's all very well me saying that, how could it be indicated objectively, well voter turnout is often cited as an indicator of the satisfaction the population have with the system, which brings me to the US, arguably a country with one of the most obtrusive and powerful media systems in the world, and according to Wiki, voter turnout has fluctuated between 50 and 63% from 1960 to 2010, which means just over 100 million people in the US have not been buying the message for 50 years.

How much would the participation increase if there would be a coupon for a free lunch at McDonalds included?

Non-voters can have as bad reasons not to vote as voters. For example being too lazy versus being too stupid not to recognize that voting is meaningless because the forces that have the real power can't be unvoted since their power comes not from meaningless votes but from money.

[thejetset]

And we should not forget that wartime romances were anything uncommon. Scenes in The Pacific I thought were well handled. What counts is how true to life the subject is handled. Obviously the kind of thing people are objecting to here is the kind of romance that is just grafted on artificially so that actresses who will be box office attractions can be injected into a plot in which they have no real role.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I agree with you completely. As long as it fits into the context, it greatly adds to the feel for the characters. The Pacific was very good in doing this. Also, "Piece of Cake" ... both the novel and the mini-series did this very well. (and there was A LOT of frolicking happening both during the Battle of Britain and during the time the RAF spent in France prior to the Invasion of France) ... so these fit naturally into any semi-realistic plot and story-line.

.... But, trying to JAM a romance into a story of a desperate group of German soldiers on the Eastern Front who are fighting for their daily survival might not be necessary to have an extremely gripping story. (but going into the soldier's history or showing the life of soldier on a brief leave from the front line, like they did in The Pacific, would do the trick quite nicely and still be realistic)

[ZPB II]

Also if you care so much about living in the Matrix, stop wasting your time on CM and smash the system, or you could just sit in your Ivory Tower feeling superior.

People like you, that can see through the lies and don't act, are worse than the people that consume.

It's starting to feel like someone's sensibilities have been offended on some underlying level.

I am almost certain that you have limited information on my life and my plans, so as such I'm not sure you are in a position to comment on that. I am working on projects related to entertainment and culture. One could say that I am trying to change the system on a microlevel, as I feel change comes with a carrot, not a stick.

Today, I am slightly disappointed with this forum. I thought we had higher standards. This is not to say I'm trying to gain any moral high ground here, I'm just expressing my feelings. I'm well aware that I'm a bit of a troll.

EDIT: Ok, let's not call it mindless consumerism then, if you hold the term fallacious. I gave it two seconds of thought and came up with a fancy term: "producer controlled and borderline enforced consumerism." I have to run now, so maybe someone comes up with a better term in the meanwhile.

Just in case, Hi Mom!

[noob]

I think they do, but this is merely my opinion. But it is an opinion that I base on my daily interactions with people.

So it's anecdotal, which means it's meaningless as a statement of fact, but if you are happy to hold views, and disseminate them without doing any research at all that's your business.

I like to keep my finger on the pulse of modern culture, it is part of my education and my career. Ignorance fills the streets, schools, cafeterias, newspaper comment sections, Facebook, Twitter...

Actually i can access more information now than i ever could 10 years ago, so it's not just ignorance that fills the streets, in fact the average person now knows far more about the world than any previous generation.

It has a lot to do with the modern tempo. I think it's unhealthy. Everything today has to be faster. Faster scenes, faster cuts. Hurry up!

I'm sure there were people from every generation since humans created civilisations that bemoaned the pace of life.

Preorder Medal of Honor: Warfighter so you can enter Battlefield 4 beta! Run! Gun! This leads to attention deficits.

Evidence please.

People aren't given time to think things through. Someone with a tinfoil hat might propose that this is intentional, to feed more consumerism. It's rare to talk to a person who actually wants to increase the tempo of his life. There's a reason why downshifting is popular, and it's not just because it's hip and chic.

Now you are contradicting yourself, now people are not mindless consumers, but desperate citizens seeking refuge.

In real-life, I get along with people pretty well. I like to think that it's not a big loss even if you treat a person nicely even, if in secret you think to yourself that the person represents such a level of willingful ignorance that it's almost borderline evil.

I don't trust the intelligence of anyone that uses the word evil.

[noob]

I am almost certain that you have limited information on my life and my plans, so as such I'm not sure you are in a position to comment on that.

I love you Zeb, that's exactly what i've been trying to tell you in regard to your opinions of "mindless consumers"

I am working on projects related to entertainment and culture. One could say that I am trying to change the system on a microlevel, as I feel change comes with a carrot, not a stick.

Then God (if God exists) help us all !

Today, I am slightly disappointed with this forum. I thought we had higher standards.

What do you mean by this statement ?

This is not to say I'm trying to gain any moral high ground here, I'm just expressing my feelings. I'm well aware that I'm a bit of a troll.

So your saying you say deliberately provocative things just for the sake of it ?

[noob]

How much would the participation increase if there would be a coupon for a free lunch at McDonalds included?

Non-voters can have as bad reasons not to vote as voters. For example being too lazy versus being too stupid not to recognize that voting is meaningless because the forces that have the real power can't be unvoted since their power comes not from meaningless votes but from money.

Well if that's the case, no wonder people seek refuge in consumerism, which means it's hardly fair to criticise them when they do, given the futility of resistance.

[ZPB II]

I don't know if you are having a bad day, but right now I'm perceiving your behaviour as extremely childish. The word tantrum comes to mind.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a world to change. I'll be back but I have this foreboding feeling that this thread will be locked by the time of my return.

All the best.

EDIT: I don't know about the legislation in your country, but I am not authorized to share private marketing research in the public. I also love how you drag this to a personal level at each chance you get and how you chop my post into pieces and take them out of context.

And no, I'm not trolling right now. This is trolling: "LOLOLOLOLO YOU CANT CRITICIZ ANYTHINGG IF YOU R NOT FREEDOM FIGHTERR AND 2477 FIGHT DA POWARR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BLOWUP DA MATXIR!!!!1 420 ONE LOVE BREDDA!!!!!!11"

[Steiner14]

Well if that's the case, no wonder people seek refuge in consumerism, which means it's hardly fair to criticise them when they do, given the futility of resistance.

So lucky slaves should not be called slaves?

[noob]

I don't know if you are having a bad day, but right now I'm perceiving your behaviour as extremely childish. The word tantrum comes to mind.

Of course i'm having a tantrum and being childish, how else could one have the audacity to criticise your statements.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a world to change. I'll be back but I have this foreboding feeling that this thread will be locked by the time of my return.

You are a Troll.

EDIT: I don't know about the legislation in your country, but I am not authorized to share private marketing research in the public.

But you are authorised to share private bs in public ....see i'm smiling, i'm not annoyed.

I also love how you drag this to a personal level at each chance you get and how you chop my post into pieces and take them out of context.

It's because your stunning logic is too much for me, so i have to resort to underhand tactics to thwart you, how else can the weak conquer the strong ?

I also love to drag up and promenade around town, hoping for a glance from a sailor at each chance i get, and how your chopper is like a post, it would mash me into pieces.

Whatever turns you on

[thejetset]

I'm going to put my 2-cents in on the side of noob.

I think there are 4 types of war movies and war books

- Raw Historical - Broad Scope: (not a total documentary ... but less drama and more focus on the history)

- Gettysburg

- Lawrence of Arabia

- A Bridge Too Far

- Patton (although this was focused more on a single man)

etc ....

- Schindler's List

- Hollywood "Shine": (facts be damned ... we gotta sell this thing! .. or basic propaganda)

- Pearl Harbor

- Red Tails

- U-571

- The Hunt for Red October

-

- Down and Dirty - Soldiers Perspective (Drama is more contextual)

- Cross of Iron

- Saving Private Ryan

- The Pacific

- Band of Brothers

- Platoon

- Piece of Cake

- Das Boot

- Hurt Locker

- The Downfall

- Story that happens to take place in the context of war (more focused on the Story ... background just adds to the drama)

- English Patient

- A Very Long Engagement

- Empire of the Sun

- Life is Beautiful (although this classification is highly debatable for this because the story really depended on the setting ... real tear-jerker)

By no means a definitive list ... but I think enough to get the point across.

I tend to like the "Down and Dirty" as my first choice and then "Raw Historical - Broad Scope" as my 2nd Choice.

Referring to what noob was saying ... I prefer "Down and Dirty" because the story is more gripping. I like to be absorbed in a movie. I don't mind if certain liberties are taken for the means of getting the story across.

I prefer documentaries over "Raw Historical - Broad Scope" movies. I think a good Documentary does a better and more thorough job than a movie that tries to stuff all of that into a 2 hour window. (exception maybe being Lawrence of Arabia and Gettysburg ... although the repective books, 7 Pillars of Wisdom and The Killer Angels were better than the films)