Buddy Aid and reloading small arms

[RockinHarry]

Hope this is yet on BFC to do list, but please add kneel down or prone stances for soldiers applying buddy aid, or reloading small arms. Buddy aid should be applied from prone stance when under enemy LOS and soldiers should go for full cover as well, when loading new mags or rifle clips. It´s quite disturbing to see self sacrificing of these guys when act this way under enemy LOS/LOF.

If it´s for lack of having animations for these actions, I could live with expedients (use LMG gunner reloading sequence, just swapping weapons) or abstractions (buddy aiding soldier laying down, turning toward wounded mate, rifle (...) on back). The soldiers actions (Medic, reloading) then can be indicated in the transparent text area at bottom left (hows that info area thing called actually?)

[JonS]

There is already a kneeling animation for buddy aid. In fact, that's the only animation for BA.

There is no requirement for a prone animation for BA because units will not - should not? - attempt BA in an area that they don't feel is secure. If they spot an enemy or come under fire, my understanding is that any BA should stop and not start again until the area is secure.

If the enemy manages to sneak up on your guys while they're conducting BA and therefore catching your guys tactically flatfooted, then well done the enemy.

[RockinHarry]

There is already a kneeling animation for buddy aid. In fact, that's the only animation for BA.

There is no requirement for a prone animation for BA because units will not - should not? - attempt BA in an area that they don't feel is secure. If they spot an enemy or come under fire, my understanding is that any BA should stop and not start again until the area is secure.

If the enemy manages to sneak up on your guys while they're conducting BA and therefore catching your guys tactically flatfooted, then well done the enemy.

I know about kneeling animation for BA, but I obviously was unclear with desired prone stance? :confused:

Well... there´s no secure area for buddy aid, as the countless game play examples shows buddy aiding soldiers die like flies. Beside lack of animation sequence, I see no reason not to have BA applied from a prone position. Better have it as "default" in secure and unsecure situations. Also see no RL relation that BA MUST be applied from kneeling position.

[JonS]

It's your job to make sure the area is secure. Not theirs.

[womble]

There is no requirement for a prone animation for BA because units will not - should not? - attempt BA in an area that they don't feel is secure. If they spot an enemy or come under fire, my understanding is that any BA should stop and not start again until the area is secure.

Unfotunately the AI's memory and sense of context is somewhat lacking in this regard. I've seen units shot through the window of the ground floor of a house by an MG with an elevation advantage. The MG is briefly spotted by its targets which then die. The MG becomes unspotted and a minute or two later, members of the original target's team scooch over towards their downed fellows, begin BA and are engaged by the MG. End of that (HQ) team. Then the ammo bearer team spots the downed men (with the MG having faded into a distant memory, 90 seconds later) and goes to give buddy aid. Score 2 more for the enemy MG team. And the last two of the bearer team only survive because they've not reached the target zone (next to the pile of 5 bodies) before I stop them and get them out of the house. The AI seems hopelessly optimistic about what "secure" means.

[LongLeftFlank]

If you're going to add something, I'd much rather see a "drag Buddy to cover by his webbing straps" animation. But the status quo doesn't bother me personally... It abstracts other risky activity.

[Michael Emrys]

...the countless game play examples shows buddy aiding soldiers die like flies.

Really? I've only come across a single example of that, and that was due to an HE shell landing right next to them.

Michael

[Wodin]

If you're going to add something, I'd much rather see a "drag Buddy to cover by his webbing straps" animation. But the status quo doesn't bother me personally... It abstracts other risky activity.

I vote for that aswell!!

As for buddy aid death I haven't seen it often enough to warrent raised eyebrows...I mean I'm sure many, many medics where hit whilst applying aid in the War.

[RockinHarry]

Really? I've only come across a single example of that, and that was due to an HE shell landing right next to them.

Michael

I correct: "......the countless examples in MY game plays show buddy aiding soldiers die like flies."

Note: I´m intensively working on sceanrios where (human played) germans are on the defense and thus do not move that much until counter attack locally. The infantry in their defensive positions do BA quite oftenly, but I can´t move them out just to prevent this. They more often than not feel "secure" in their foxholes and trenches, exposing themselves partly outside while doing BA, ignoring "hide" and nearby enemies. Thus I loose many additional soldiers due to unnecessary, uncontrollable exposure.

So applying BA from prone, lay down stance in this and any other circumstance would not help prevent unnecessary losses among buddy aidees?

"Sorry Hans, I actually can´t now treat your wounds, as we´re told in first aid course that we just can do from kneeling position outside the trench, but as it´s an honor to die for this purpose,...I´ll do"

If in YOUR games, you´re constantly on the move, securing your wounded offensively and let BA be applied by follow up troops, THEN you surely do not see the problem that oftenly, I agree.

In Wombles post further above, another situation is described where uncontrollable BA leads to further unnecessary losses.

Another way to solve the "problem", would be to enable/disable BA per unit base by use of a switch temporarily.

[LukeFF]

I'm trying to imagine applying buddy aid while prone, and it just doesn't make sense. It would be terribly cumbersome trying to perform buddy aid on someone while prone. Plus, in all my years as a medic in the Army, never once were we trained in treating casualties while in the prone position.

[RockinHarry]

I vote for that aswell!!

As for buddy aid death I haven't seen it often enough to warrent raised eyebrows...I mean I'm sure many, many medics where hit whilst applying aid in the War.

Yep, but we don´t have medics and BA can´t be "controlled", at least not if you´re staying with the wounded at the place where the WIA occured.

I wonder that nobody has any concerns with reloading small arms in full view and exposure of the enemy. I mean, if cover is actually available at the current place AND a soldiers just needs to go to kneel or lay down position to reload in full cover.

I´d say, in MY games unnessecary exposure from reloading small arms and BA makes at least 20% additional losses.

[RockinHarry]

I'm trying to imagine applying buddy aid while prone, and it just doesn't make sense. It would be terribly cumbersome trying to perform buddy aid on someone while prone. Plus, in all my years as a medic in the Army, never once were we trained in treating casualties while in the prone position.

Ok, assuming you´re in a combat situation like the ones mentioned above. Were you trained to first move the wounded into security, or if not applicable and the wounded needs immediate treatment, would you at least try from where you are in prone position, or rather wait until the environment is more secure?

But actually this is a different topic, as BA does not assume the presence of true medics. Another question is, what means did have WW2 infantry at hand to apply first aid in combat situations and how did they do historically? :confused:

[womble]

I wonder that nobody has any concerns with reloading small arms in full view and exposure of the enemy. I mean, if cover is actually available at the current place AND a soldiers just needs to go to kneel or lay down position to reload in full cover.

Concerns about it have been raised, and I'm sure they're valid. I also notice that troops can go prone to reload; I've seen the animation. Usually it's the target of my troops that takes this sensible approach... :-/

[Sublime]

Another question is, what means did have WW2 infantry at hand to apply first aid in combat situations and how did they do historically? :confused:

Well. Im not expert, but what I do know is

-US troops each were issued a morphine syrette that when jabbed once automatically shoot the morphine into you. Though often, they sold these on the black market, or gave them away. If you gave someone morphine, it was common to write a big M on their forehead in their blood. (This was done after WW2, and is done today even)

-Sulfa packets, with sulfa powder were issued to everyone. Sulfa would be sprinkled all over a wound to help with infection.

-Basic instructions, such as putting a tourniquet on limb wounds were often given to even basic soldiers.

After that it was the province of the medics.

[LukeFF]

Ok, assuming you´re in a combat situation like the ones mentioned above. Were you trained to first move the wounded into security, or if not applicable and the wounded needs immediate treatment, would you at least try from where you are in prone position, or rather wait until the environment is more secure?

Short on time here, but in brief:

-First priority was in suppressing the enemy. Medical aid came second.

-Once suppression was attained, then we would go to work in treating causalities. After all, a dead/incapacitated medic doesn't do anyone any good.

[RockinHarry]

Short on time here, but in brief:

-First priority was in suppressing the enemy. Medical aid came second.

-Once suppression was attained, then we would go to work in treating causalities. After all, a dead/incapacitated medic doesn't do anyone any good.

Makes sense. Would be interesting to know about WW2 procedures for medics, but I´d assume they weren´t that much different than current ones basically.

[RockinHarry]

Well. Im not expert, but what I do know is

-US troops each were issued a morphine syrette that when jabbed once automatically shoot the morphine into you. Though often, they sold these on the black market, or gave them away. If you gave someone morphine, it was common to write a big M on their forehead in their blood. (This was done after WW2, and is done today even)

-Sulfa packets, with sulfa powder were issued to everyone. Sulfa would be sprinkled all over a wound to help with infection.

-Basic instructions, such as putting a tourniquet on limb wounds were often given to even basic soldiers.

After that it was the province of the medics.

So that basically applies to our CMBN buddy aidees too (which are no medics in the sense). See nothing here that couldn´t really be applied in prone stance.

[RockinHarry]

Concerns about it have been raised, and I'm sure they're valid. I also notice that troops can go prone to reload; I've seen the animation. Usually it's the target of my troops that takes this sensible approach... :-/

Could be. Beside (german) LMG gunner, I can´t remember at the moment. Maybe they do, if they´re already at the stance (prone, kneeling), but they should go for the better generally, if this allows taking full cover.

So far they appear to reload (clip, mag, belt, not single bolt action) from the stance they used last for engaging the enemy, thus keeping LOS/LOF to the enemy generally. It´s doctrinally wrong, not to perform certain actions in full cover, but maybe the game attempts to keep awareness, so the single soldiers do not need to respot the enemy.

German doctrine:

You either observe, move, shoot or dig in. Anything else is "scheibe liegen" (showing target). If not doing any these actions, you go to full cover.

[Holien]

It would be good if BTS could code Buddy Aid to only be done if not under fire? I guess as ever that might be easier said than done...

I have a HQ team I have told to hide as they are being shelled but are next to dead and applying buddy aid... I would rather they look after themselves first...

Not a game breaker but would be nice to have a threat level above which such things as buddy aid don't happen.

Mind you then people would complain that there team while under fire did not pick up the Faust of a dead colleague!!!

So I guess maybe one to live with?

[Haggard Sketchy]

It would be good if BTS could code Buddy Aid to only be done if not under fire? I guess as ever that might be easier said than done...

I have a HQ team I have told to hide as they are being shelled but are next to dead and applying buddy aid... I would rather they look after themselves first...

Not a game breaker but would be nice to have a threat level above which such things as buddy aid don't happen.

Mind you then people would complain that there team while under fire did not pick up the Faust of a dead colleague!!!

So I guess maybe one to live with?

There already is tendency to avoid BA during fighting. It just isn't perfect. Like womble noted, CM soldiers' situational awareness is lacking. Sometimes they leave cover to perform BA because they lost LoS with the enemy or something, then die.

Dragging the wounded to safety first would be a cool feature, but that would require situational awareness in the first place. Plus it's only one of many possible individual behaviors and animations to add.

[RockinHarry]

Think BA sequence is programmed in a way, that prior to BA application, the aidee has to micro path find into an appropiate position first, getting him more often then not into a coverless situation this way.

A less strictly applied sequence with an aidee in prone position would solve most issues IMO.

Another issue is that the aidee could oftenly be interrupted (by spotting an enemy? ...suppression effects? ...?), requiring him to completely start anew several times at worst, thus putting him even longer in dangers.

A prone aidee also would likely feel less threatened, so less interruptions would occur.

I´d assume the aidee would stay focused on his BA actions, while his team/squad mates cover him, unless he´s lone at the place with the wounded. Thus spotting or really necessary defense measures would come second.

[Broadsword56]

+1 to "drag by his webbing straps" animation -- I keep imagining a "medic" unit that could be split into a medic team and a litter bearer team. The litter would behave like a vehicle -- in that once the team got to a casualty, the WIA figure would change from a guy on the ground to a guy in the litter and the two litter bearers carrying it. Once "loaded", the litter could be sent off to a safer area in the rear -- that would also be the place you could keep other medics to do the actual aid. The medic unit could also come with a special jeep, where "loading" it with casualty would place it on a litter across the hood. Of course, this would probably take years of coding and troubleshooting for what is tactically meaningless eyecandy -- but I guess I can dream, can't I?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Here's a question I've not seen answered before on Buddy Aid. If a crew member in an AFV becomes a caualty does one of the rest of the crew attempt buddy aid while the guy lies bleeding in the vehicle, or not? Should the AFV move is the incapacitated guy somehow magically left behind?

Regards

KR

[womble]

Here's a question I've not seen answered before on Buddy Aid. If a crew member in an AFV becomes a caualty does one of the rest of the crew attempt buddy aid while the guy lies bleeding in the vehicle, or not? Should the AFV move is the incapacitated guy somehow magically left behind?

Regards

KR

IME, the casualties in all vehicles vanish from the game too quickly for normal buddy aid to be being applied. How they're counted wrt casualty score calculations I couldn't say for sure, but have vague memories that they're considered to be buddy aided at some point because, well, they're in the same action spot as their crewmates... How that works when the surviving crew bail, I have no idea.

The casualty won't be left behind, but you'll never see a surviving crewman doing "Medic" inside the vehicle.

[RockinHarry]

Same for pillboxes. Every crew member as well as weapons and special equipment is lost forever, once you have casualties inside.:mad: