2 quickies as i plough on with the demo

[undercovergeek]

1. if i order my pixeltruppen to hide, but still give them a target arc - will they pop up shouting 'surprise' covering that arc or is it only valid when they are unhidden

2. if i give the pixeltruppen a cover arc but a short one so that they look in the right direction but dont open fire - will they still spot beyond the range of the cover arc or are they blind until the arc is entered - basically in busting the bocage im trying to use the scout team as spotters but dont want them to open fire - ive given them a cover arc that has them looking in the general direction of the US entry point but only 10m in front of them - so will they scan the hedge in the distance or just stare at the ground 10 m in front of them?

thanks for all or any help - still working out the puzzle and loving it

[c3k]

1. This is exactly how to spring an ambush. They will stay hidden until a target enters their covered arc. They will then engage the target. (Standard caveat: the TacAI may have them engage targets outside the covered arc if that target is deemed enough of a threat, e.g., an enemy team attacking them from behind.)

2. Yes, they will spot beyond the range of the covered arc. The same caveat as above.

Good luck.

Ken

[Zatoichi]

I think the unit's experience also factors into whether a unit will engage targets outside of a cover arc, with green troops more likely to open up than regular troops.

(Standard caveat: I may be talking rubbish )

[womble]

Sorry to sow confusion, but if the unit has a Hide order, that will apply even if troops enter their covered arc. The two aren't linked. And while Hide doesn't stop troops shooting as effectively as a covered arc does, it does mean their spotting is degraded so they might not even see that a threat has entered their designated arc. If you want to set an ambush that will trigger automatically, Hide probably isn't the best order to issue, AIUI.

Again, as I understand it from reading CMSF forum threads, Covered Arcs don't seem to affect spotting at all. Only engagement parameters. Your units neither spot better within their CA, nor worse outside it.

[Stitch]

I will add to this confusion some of my observations.

Hiding at its very core is just telling your squad to keep their heads down (go prone) more often than crouching and looking around. Hence, you can still spot will hiding, just at a reduced effectiveness. I will also surmise, that given all other factors (experience, etc), a squad will fire on enemies in their target arc whilst hiding at a reduced effectiveness, the caveat being that while prone they can not see the target in the arc.

Being that the squad behavours of spotting and firing are no longer abstracted, each pair of eyeballs (height and facing) do make a difference on how many guns you can bear on a target.

I use the short cover arc tactic extensively for scouting. The team will spot objects further out than their range for sure. However, they may not spot that AT gun in the bocage line immediately, so the decision on how long to keep the scouts stationary is up to you. I've had previously unseen targets show up a minute or two later after laying still at my OP.

Nothing gives away a position like fire arms flash. This is why many scouts die so fast to be made useless. As this works both ways, if you are in a hurry, you may want to send some expendable 'bait' out to entice the enemy to reveal themselves to the scout.

[Wildman]

Sorry to sow confusion, but if the unit has a Hide order, that will apply even if troops enter their covered arc. The two aren't linked. And while Hide doesn't stop troops shooting as effectively as a covered arc does, it does mean their spotting is degraded so they might not even see that a threat has entered their designated arc. If you want to set an ambush that will trigger automatically, Hide probably isn't the best order to issue, AIUI.

Again, as I understand it from reading CMSF forum threads, Covered Arcs don't seem to affect spotting at all. Only engagement parameters. Your units neither spot better within their CA, nor worse outside it.

I'm sorry Womble, I believe that you are incorrect on this item. Units will hide, but will break hide to engage a proper target when it enters the target arc.

Ex. you can test. Pick a panzerscreck or bazooka...have them hide with a target arc. They will spot just fine but will withhold fire until a tank or other target enters their target arc. They will then "unhide" and attack the target.

[eltorrente]

I'm sorry Womble, I believe that you are incorrect on this item. Units will hide, but will break hide to engage a proper target when it enters the target arc.

Ex. you can test. Pick a panzerscreck or bazooka...have them hide with a target arc. They will spot just fine but will withhold fire until a tank or other target enters their target arc. They will then "unhide" and attack the target.

They will spot just fine, though they are hidden? I thought hiding makes you not spot as well (?).

I find it interesting that there is all sorts of conflicting opinions on this.. I don't understand why the manual doesn't make this clear.

[Blackcat]

... Again, as I understand it from reading CMSF forum threads, Covered Arcs don't seem to affect spotting at all. Only engagement parameters. Your units neither spot better within their CA, nor worse outside it.

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall posts form Steve that stated quite the opposite. The CMBN manual, whilst ambiguous, does also suggest that covered arc affects spotting (see page 84).

[undercovergeek]

i have noticed through hands clamped to my eyes (as i wait for death dealing incoming fire) that troops hiding in the hedges will occassionally change to spotting and then duck back down again - its not so much the benefit of surprise im after - i dont want to be seen until my mg42 is right in your face - so is hiding until that point the best option - with maybe one well concealed (not hiding) unit spotting the field of advance and then at the last minute ill manually unhide

[c3k]

I think that spotting is worse when hiding. I can guarantee that hiding units WILL open fire when a target enters their covered arc. (Caveat emptor, tempus fugit, et cetera, et alia, ibid, ad nauseum.)

[Polo]

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall posts form Steve that stated quite the opposite. The CMBN manual, whilst ambiguous, does also suggest that covered arc affects spotting (see page 84).

Hiding DOES affect spotting badly (more than in CMx1 afaik)

On the other hand, I would be intersted to know the answer to Blackcat's question. Even in CMx1, I would tend to think a covered arc allows better spotting in its direction. Any documented answer?

Polo

[undercovergeek]

after a battlefield left covered with US bodies i can confirm that after a very nervous delay the troops will open fire and lay waste to advancing GI's at close range despite being previously hidden behind a hedge - plan worked perfectly.

A question now arises - i had 3 shreck teams behind a hedge, hidden, up rolled the tanks, up popped the shreks and up in flames the Shermans went - what order would i give for the teams to pop up, fire and hide again - as it was they killed the 2 shermans in 15 seconds and then spent the next 45 seconds getting shot at by an unseen 3rd tank.

All in all - apart from important life experiences the last 60 seconds of CMBN have been the most exciting 60 seconds.. ever.... i shall post later about them

[hoolaman]

As far as an arc affecting spotting, it doesn't in any direct way but there is a significant bonus to spotting based on facing (or rather a penalty for facing the wrong way) so there will be benefits just from looking in the correct direction. But with two identical units looking the same way one will not spot something better even with a laser-thin cover arc. Even in reality they would still be scanning their sector.

As for units breaking hide for an arc ambush, yes they do. They can often have degraded spotting simply by being prone behind some obstacle, but AIUI there is even some abstracted peeking that will have them unhide from behind a wall.

I've never noticed spotting to be any worse with a hiding unit vs an identical non-hiding unit.

[womble]

Yes hidden troops will peek. They just do it less than unhidden troops, so they are both less likely to actually spot anything and less likely to be spotted in return.

[hoolaman]

A question now arises - i had 3 shreck teams behind a hedge, hidden, up rolled the tanks, up popped the shreks and up in flames the Shermans went - what order would i give for the teams to pop up, fire and hide again - as it was they killed the 2 shermans in 15 seconds and then spent the next 45 seconds getting shot at by an unseen 3rd tank.

You can't really have the TacAI do an automatic shoot and scoot, but a manual one is certainly doable with pauses and move orders timing. With short engagent ranges it gets a lot tricker to do it manually having to wait 60 sec but it is a better way to ensure your guys don't get into exactly the situation you describe.

[Vanir Ausf B]

A question now arises - i had 3 shreck teams behind a hedge, hidden, up rolled the tanks, up popped the shreks and up in flames the Shermans went - what order would i give for the teams to pop up, fire and hide again - as it was they killed the 2 shermans in 15 seconds and then spent the next 45 seconds getting shot at by an unseen 3rd tank.

Try this:

1) Unhide them. You could also give them target arcs containing the Shermans, or give them direct target commands although direct targeting seems to make them more likely to fire their small arms, so just unhide them with a target arc.

2) Give 3 or so pause commands to give them enough time to fire the Sherks.

3) Plot a Quick or Fast move order. If you want them to stay in the same place you can plot the move order onto the same spot they are already at.

4) Highlight the move order cube thing by clicking on it. You can now issue a hide command that they will execute after the move is completed. You could also give them a short covered arc on the end of the move to ensure they don't jump back up and start shooting again.

[Speedy]

Quickies and Plough in the thread title made me think this would be about something completely different.

[c3k]

Try this:

1) Unhide them. You could also give them target arcs containing the Shermans, or give them direct target commands although direct targeting seems to make them more likely to fire their small arms, so just unhide them with a target arc.

2) Give 3 or so pause commands to give them enough time to fire the Sherks.

3) Plot a Quick or Fast move order. If you want them to stay in the same place you can plot the move order onto the same spot they are already at.

4) Highlight the move order cube thing by clicking on it. You can now issue a hide command that they will execute after the move is completed. You could also give them a short covered arc on the end of the move to ensure they don't jump back up and start shooting again.

This is excellent advice. I'd add one slight adjustment. In Vanir's step 2, ensure the pauses are long enough for the unit to aim and fire. There's nothing worse than watching this unfold and then have your units run and hide BEFORE firing because you made their initial firing pause a hair too short for them to shoot their weapon. How long should it be? Well, you'll have to figure that out with experience.

[undercovergeek]

Quickies and Plough in the thread title made me think this would be about something completely different.

sigh - always the colonies letting us down!!

Great advice all, thank you very much.

Lastly (for now) is surrender a sign of the overall enemys morale or just that individual unit?