Weapon and ammo scrounging.

[Oddball_E8]

So i just played the "take out the 88 guns from band of brothers" scenario (cant remember its name) and every soldier i had that was equipped with a tommygun ran out of ammo within miniutes of enemy contact.

In fact, my main assault team (2 tommyguns, and one dead garand guy) ran out of ammo and had to just hide somewhere since they didnt scrounge any ammo or weapons off the dead germans.

in my opinion this is a poor design move from BF, since it was somewhat common for soldiers that ran out of ammo and had no friendlies around to scrounge from, to pick up an enemies weapon if need be...

we already have the scrounging mechanic in the game, why cant we expand that to enemy weapons when in dire need?

[womble]

...it was somewhat common for soldiers that ran out of ammo and had no friendlies around to scrounge from, to pick up an enemies weapon if need be...

That's the divergence in opinion, right there. BFC emphasise that troops were trained not to touch any enemy eqipment that they find, since it may well be booby-trapped. There is also the fact that in limited visibility, troops would fire in the direction of weapons fire that sounded like the distinctive enemy weapons. So troops didn't do it. That's BFC's take on it.

The flaw, really, is that the SMG toters even bother opening up at ranges further than about 50m. The odd "short controlled burst" just so the other guy knows there's some full-auto hurt out there, yeah, but actually hitting anything over that range with an MP40 or American .45ACP weapon in battlefield conditions? Not verra likely.

[slysniper]

So i just played the "take out the 88 guns from band of brothers" scenario (cant remember its name) and every soldier i had that was equipped with a tommygun ran out of ammo within miniutes of enemy contact.

In fact, my main assault team (2 tommyguns, and one dead garand guy) ran out of ammo and had to just hide somewhere since they didnt scrounge any ammo or weapons off the dead germans.

in my opinion this is a poor design move from BF, since it was somewhat common for soldiers that ran out of ammo and had no friendlies around to scrounge from, to pick up an enemies weapon if need be...

we already have the scrounging mechanic in the game, why cant we expand that to enemy weapons when in dire need?

You need to save that ammo until you are in range, cover arc them units, yor base of fire should have been the machine guns, that scenario is not hard to finish with the ammo they had, learn to use what you are given before wanting to get your hands on the enemy equipment.

but I agree with you that you should be able to pick it up and use it, maybe with some penelties, like not as good of a aim since they are not familar with it, plus more jams, plus let friendlies fire on them if they have lost c/c factors.

[Major SNAFU]

You need to save that ammo until you are in range, cover arc them units, yor base of fire should have been the machine guns, that scenario is not hard to finish with the ammo they had, learn to use what you are given before wanting to get your hands on the enemy equipment.

but I agree with you that you should be able to pick it up and use it, maybe with some penelties, like not as good of a aim since they are not familar with it, plus more jams, plus let friendlies fire on them if they have lost c/c factors.

Actually, I haven't had a single jam yet. Does this happen in CMBN?

[Oddball_E8]

That's the divergence in opinion, right there. BFC emphasise that troops were trained not to touch any enemy eqipment that they find, since it may well be booby-trapped. There is also the fact that in limited visibility, troops would fire in the direction of weapons fire that sounded like the distinctive enemy weapons. So troops didn't do it. That's BFC's take on it.

The flaw, really, is that the SMG toters even bother opening up at ranges further than about 50m. The odd "short controlled burst" just so the other guy knows there's some full-auto hurt out there, yeah, but actually hitting anything over that range with an MP40 or American .45ACP weapon in battlefield conditions? Not verra likely.

possible, but on the other hand, if you just mowed the guys down yourself, and ran out of ammo with enemies shooting at you, would you really just sit there and twiddle your thumbs?

like i said, id like it included, but only in the most dire situations... ie. when youre completely out of ammo, no friendlies around to share ammo with and enemies firing upon you.

so no auto-scrounging of enemies each time you run past them, only if youre completely dry and have been so for a while.

[slysniper]

Actually, I haven't had a single jam yet. Does this happen in CMBN?

Mg's are the best for getting jambs, if you have fired them a lot in a short time frame. I am pretty sure I have seen jambs in the game, the old games always had them, exspecially in the desert, they were more common if fighting there.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

possible, but on the other hand, if you just mowed the guys down yourself, and ran out of ammo with enemies shooting at you, would you really just sit there and twiddle your thumbs?

like i said, id like it included, but only in the most dire situations... ie. when youre completely out of ammo, no friendlies around to share ammo with and enemies firing upon you.

so no auto-scrounging of enemies each time you run past them, only if youre completely dry and have been so for a while.

It's the usual, "lets not make the unusual a common thing". Would soldiers under these circumstances grab a German weapon? Probably yes. But the circumstances themselves are pretty rare. Soldiers with no ammo and supporting troops tend not to press the attack. Sure it did happen. Paratroops would be very likely candidates to find themselves in a situation like this.

But to allow the scrounging of enemy weapons would be over compensating by far because before very long every 98k, Mp40 and MG42 encountered will be picked up by a GI and carried around. And that just did not happen. Not even remotely close.

And all that to solve a problem that only comes up in outlier situations?

The cure is worse then the disease.

[Oddball_E8]

It's the usual, "lets not make the unusual a common thing". Would soldiers under these circumstances grab a German weapon? Probably yes. But the circumstances themselves are pretty rare. Soldiers with no ammo and supporting troops tend not to press the attack. Sure it did happen. Paratroops would be very likely candidates to find themselves in a situation like this.

But to allow the scrounging of enemy weapons would be over compensating by far because before very long every 98k, Mp40 and MG42 encountered will be picked up by a GI and carried around. And that just did not happen. Not even remotely close.

And all that to solve a problem that only comes up in outlier situations?

The cure is worse then the disease.

I dont see that happening if you set it up so it can only happen within certain paramaters:

1: under fire or in direct line of sight of enemy troops

2: completely out of ammo (not even 2 shots left)

3: no other friendly troops in line of sight to get ammo from. (could be troops, but using wrong ammo)

4: give priority to personal weapon, so if later on the unit comes in contact with someone carrying the appropriate ammo (dead or alive and willing to share) they would switch back to primary weapon.

if you set it up that way, it would be exactly what it was in real life: a very rare occation...

how often do you have troops that are out of ammo, nowhere near anyone that can share ammo and under fire?

very rarely.

but when it DOES happen, you will be sitting there screaming at them to pick up those mausers lying at their feet

[gunnergoz]

And if they do pick up and fire enemy weapons, be prepared for "Blue on Blue" right back at you as other friendly soldiers hear what they think is an enemy weapon and open fire on it. That killed more than one WW2 GI.

[BloodyBucket]

Anecdotal story.

My father told me when he first got to France he ran into a situation where his squad had occupied a position that had plenty of German weapons, including machineguns, machinepistols and "bazookas" (I think they were panzerfausts). They started taking fire from a treeline a ways off, and decided it would be good to let the Germans have what for with their own stuff. They put out as much fire as they could in a short time, got a short distance away and heaved some WP and frag grenades at the little depot, and scampered...shortly before the 60mm mortars started dropping.

When they got back and made contact with the Platoon commander, he was frantically calling for reinforcements to deal with "a heavy Kraut counterattack on our flank" and seeking permission to get heavier artillery involved. When they told him that they were the "heavy Kraut counterattack" he was none too pleased.

I can see using enemy weapons in a pinch, but on any sort of scale it probably wasn't done, especially by the side that enjoyed such superiority in supporting arms most of the time.

Perhaps it would be better to have the pixeltroopers show zero ammo, and be unable to fire at any distance, but be capable of firing a few rounds at extremely short range...sort of saving a few for emergency self defense.

[Oddball_E8]

And if they do pick up and fire enemy weapons, be prepared for "Blue on Blue" right back at you as other friendly soldiers hear what they think is an enemy weapon and open fire on it. That killed more than one WW2 GI.

im pretty sure having no ammo and being fired upon by enemies can have that effect as well... (death that is... not blue on blue)

like i said, its not about GI's picking up MG42's and running around with them all the time... its about soldiers in dire need of a weapon picking up whatevers at their feet and firing back to survive.

people seem to be blowing this slightly out of proportion and seem to think i want troops to pick up all enemy guns they see and carry them around.

like i said earlier, for extreme situations only... not a regular thing.

[Ryujin]

At very least it would be nice if they would at least pick up personal weapons from downed friendlies if very low or out of ammo (i think they just pick up the ammo/major weapon systems atm). In the band of brothers scenario I had a similar issue where I had a guy running around with an empty thompson and a load of ammo for a M1, but he wouldn't pick em up when doing buddy aid.

Yelling at your guys under fire to pick up the German guns is bad enough, but having M1s laying at their feet is just too much .

So at least friendly guns please! I don't see where there would be any issue if they were out of ammo. You could have them sling their original weapon like they do when picking up other weapons and switch back when they get the proper ammo (so you'd get your SMGs back if you could find .45).

[womble]

im pretty sure having no ammo and being fired upon by enemies can have that effect as well... (death that is... not blue on blue)

like i said, its not about GI's picking up MG42's and running around with them all the time... its about soldiers in dire need of a weapon picking up whatevers at their feet and firing back to survive.

people seem to be blowing this slightly out of proportion and seem to think i want troops to pick up all enemy guns they see and carry them around.

like i said earlier, for extreme situations only... not a regular thing.

Well, maybe 'it would be nice', but it's allllll coding... and spending much time on 'outlier' situations like that seems pretty low on the priority list.

[Oddball_E8]

Well, maybe 'it would be nice', but it's allllll coding... and spending much time on 'outlier' situations like that seems pretty low on the priority list.

Yeah but since theres already a function like this in the game (scrounging from friendlies) its not a whole new thing... its just a bit of additional coding...

[Jarink]

I think the only situation where it would be considered "normal" to pick up and use enemy small arms is if you're an unarmed individual in enemy territory with no or very few friendlies around to help protect you. That's outside the scope of this game.

[ChrisND]

Yeah but since theres already a function like this in the game (scrounging from friendlies) its not a whole new thing... its just a bit of additional coding...

That isn't the issue, the issue is that the "fix" will cause more problems than it solves. For a problem that doesn't really exist.

[Oddball_E8]

I think the only situation where it would be considered "normal" to pick up and use enemy small arms is if you're an unarmed individual in enemy territory with no or very few friendlies around to help protect you. That's outside the scope of this game.

Its happened to me twice already... but i guess im just playing outside the scope of this game then.

(and no, they werent individuals, but they were small groups of soldiers in enemy terretory with no friendlies around and no ammo left)

That isn't the issue, the issue is that the "fix" will cause more problems than it solves. For a problem that doesn't really exist.

how do you know it will cause problems? dont assume things that you dont know. And the problem does exist.

Like i said, ive had it happen to me twice already, once on the band of borthers mission, and once in a quick battle where the enemy attacked on a flank i wasnt expecting them to attack so the small force i had there quickly ran out of ammo with dead germans nearby. They could have easily picked up those guns to defend themselves from the enemy, but instead they just sat there and died...

[ChrisND]

You've said it yourself, that this is a rare problem. Why should Battlefront waste time on a rare problem? According to a previous post of yours, the troops would need to fulfill the following conditions:

1: under fire or in direct line of sight of enemy troops

2: completely out of ammo (not even 2 shots left)

3: no other friendly troops in line of sight to get ammo from. (could be troops, but using wrong ammo)

4: give priority to personal weapon, so if later on the unit comes in contact with someone carrying the appropriate ammo (dead or alive and willing to share) they would switch back to primary weapon.

If anything, in those conditions they should be surrendering.

And they'd have to actually be near dead enemy troops they could scavenge from. This is a rather esoteric situation that doesn't come up very often.

Then there is actually implementing it. Unlike your notion that this seems to be as easy as snapping their fingers and making it happen, that isn't the case. Just off the top of my head, here's the issues that would need to be dealt with:

1. How friendly TacAI should react to the sounds of enemy weapons in the hands of friendly troops.

2. The AI surrounding Buddy Aid would have to be opened up and modified to allow Buddy Aid to enemy troops, since that is how troops in CM pick up weapons. Of course, it would have to do all the above checks first before it starts, or else troops randomly doing Buddy Aid on enemy troops opens up a whole host of different issues.

3. The AI would have to be programmed to do the above checks.

4. The AI then has to be programmed to stop using the enemy weapons when appropriate.

5. UI changes would have to be made for ammo, since they would be picking up foreign ammo.

6. Then ALL of this has to debugged/tested.

I'd have stopped at number 1 personally. It's not worth the effort for a solution in search of a problem.

[SlapHappy]

Guess these German troops must not have gotten that memo:

[ChrisND]

Guess these German troops must not have gotten that memo:

I'll bet I could find pictures of German/Allied troops in or standing near captured enemy fighters. Shall we also assume that they had flown them in combat often as well?

[SlapHappy]

Some of those are posed pictures, yes, but some are obviously not.

[ChrisND]

Some of those are posed pictures, yes, but some are obviously not.

And still meaningless in the context of this discussion too. I don't think anyone is contesting the fact that troops used enemy weapons at some point during the war. That's really the only thing that a few pictures prove.

[SlapHappy]

And still meaningless in the context of this discussion too. I don't think anyone is contesting the fact that troops used enemy weapons at some point during the war. That's really the only thing that a few pictures prove.

If you're implying I find it imperative that BFC code picking up enemy weapons then, sorry, I'm not.

I'm simply stating that it was not in any stretch a historical.

[MikeyD]

I've been lobbying for 'Free French' units for an upcoming patch (don't know if I'll succeed, though). I can only imagine the mishmash of weapons they'd carry. Sten guns, 9mm-chambered Grease guns, Mausers, MP40s, maybe an 8mm Fusil Automatique Mle1918 for snipers. Perhaps it might be an easier task to code for enemy ammo to be scrounged if not the weapons themselves. US soldiers picking up MP40 clips from bodies wouldn't do them any good.

[Chops]

I've been lobbying for 'Free French' units for an upcoming patch (don't know if I'll succeed, though). I can only imagine the mishmash of weapons they'd carry. Sten guns, 9mm-chambered Grease guns, Mausers, MP40s, maybe an 8mm Fusil Automatique Mle1918 for snipers. Perhaps it might be an easier task to code for enemy ammo to be scrounged if not the weapons themselves. US soldiers picking up MP40 clips from bodies wouldn't do them any good.

Do you mean "module" rather than "patch"? or has BFC changed their policy on patches?