Kubelwagens as scout vehicles ?

[Michael Emrys]

And then there are tactics which, if someone tried to enact them in real life, would get a response of "you want me to do WHAT?", possibly followed by fragging the officer suggesting it.

The story is told that one time General Patton grabbed a lieutenant, pointed him toward a jeep and told him, "Get in that jeep and drive down that road until you get blown up and then come back here and report to me." I don't know what happened to the lieutenant, but Patton didn't get fragged...at least until the war was over.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Arty in attackers deployment zone in turn one (sometimes very small in most of QB maps)

Yes, that might be gamey. But be aware that whenever possible, a defender would try to shell the assembly areas of an impending attack. So, depending on how much accurate intelligence a defender might realistically be expected to have, it might be okay.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

I wonder how effective this tactic really is. It seems to me that it may be a relic of CMx1. In my experience AT guns in CMx2 can often fire many rounds before they are spotted. With relative spotting, if the firing unit is not in LOS of your overwatch there is a good chance you will never see what kills your brave little Kubelwagon. And that's only a factor if you can draw their fire. When you send your Kubelwagon on its fateful journey you are assuming your opponent is not keeping his guns on short arcs. If he is you run the risk of driving right through the kill zone unmolested until it's killed by a HQ unit or something inconsequential. In that case you then have a false sense of security that could lead you to move your armor into a bad spot. Plus you've just thrown away a unit.

If your opponent does not keep his guns on short arcs it is likely they will open up on your infantry first anyway, assuming you screen your armor properly on the advance.

If the tactic is really effective, much more so than IRL, then perhaps it can be considered "gamey". If it is not then it is just a stupid waste of a resource.

[Alan8325]

I have mixed feelings regarding this. On the one hand sending suicide units to discover enemy positions seems gamey but on the other hand we are very limited by time compared to RL.

There are basically two ways of doing recon - stealthily observing enemy positions with scouts and FOs, and getting shot at to find enemy positions. In CM we unfortunately do not often have the time to do recon of the stealthy kind and therefore need to get shot at, which is done via either recon by fire from small units such as scout teams, or with easy to spot units that are cheap and of poor value (jeep/kubel) or so tough that they can take the hits (Tiger). In CMSF I found that often the only way to find enemy ATGMs was to let them open up on my M1A2SEPs.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I'm fine with gamey as long as there is a reasonable counter to it.

A rushing Jeep is so easily prevented from doing its thing that it barely rates as gamey.

[Broken]

To me, shelling the deployment area in turn 1 is the only no no.

Owt else - bring it.

I agree. I also usually ask that there be no airplanes. Too random.

In CM1, there were a few bugs that people exploited, like the flak trucks that could not be killed by armor. People just agreed not to buy them until the patch came out.

[easytarget]

I'm fine with gamey as long as there is a reasonable counter to it.

A rushing Jeep is so easily prevented from doing its thing that it barely rates as gamey.

Hardly, in wooded areas I can drive jeeps from cover to cover all over the freakin map w/o being hit, merrily observing **** everywhere I went. Amazing how fast they move on quick.

[easytarget]

If the tactic is really effective, much more so than IRL, then perhaps it can be considered "gamey". If it is not then it is just a stupid waste of a resource.

so your test for gamey is based merely on how effective it is? really?

how about this, if the tactic would never happen in real life because no one would give or follow that order, i.e. recon by suicide, then it can be reasonably posted up for consideration as gamey, certainly open to pre-battle agreement about whether both sides are ok with it at the very least

and for those who are sporting the relativism argument that posits one man's gamey is another man's tactics, i find your position interesting, because you go to such great pains to find and play a game focused rather intently on realism, and then chunk it at point of contact

[Vanir Ausf B]

How about this: if it NEVER happened IRL -- and that is itself a big assumption I do not make -- it would clearly be because it wouldn't work very well rather than because it would be impossible. If it similarly isn't particularly effective in the game then I see no compelling need to rules lawyer it away any more than I feel that human wave attacks need to be banned.

If it actually does work pretty well, which I seriously doubt except maybe against the AI, then of course it's open to discussion. I'm all for gentleman's agreements and all that. I would have no problem agreeing to not use a tactic that is game breaking or is an exploit.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Hardly, in wooded areas I can drive jeeps from cover to cover all over the freakin map w/o being hit, merrily observing **** everywhere I went. Amazing how fast they move on quick.

Amazing how much faster bullets move. In my experience with the game so far Jeeps and their occupants seem highly vulnerable to anything that makes a loud noise, even when moving on Fast.

[noob]

Here is a link to an article that claims to be from a captured German field manual on recon.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/reconge/index.html

According to the manual there are three different forms of transport used by German recon units, horses, bicycles and armored cars, allthough right at the end of the section it says this.

"[1] Against a major opponent, German reconnaissance units seldom use bicycles unless the terrain makes this absolutely necessary."

In short all the different forms of recon transport mentioned in the manual allow the units using them to conduct offensive or defensive operations should they need to, so according to this field manual a Kubelwagen being unarmed would be insufficient to carry out the type of recon necessary for an advancing force.

[Rambler]

Who cares? It's a game, not real life. The whole thing is "gamey." Sure, it's more realistic than other games, but it's still a game. If someone wants to use kubels as scouts and pummel your set-up zones in the first minute, so be it. Perfectly valid options to both you and your opponent.

[noob]

Who cares? It's a game, not real life. The whole thing is "gamey." Sure, it's more realistic than other games, but it's still a game. If someone wants to use kubels as scouts and pummel your set-up zones in the first minute, so be it. Perfectly valid options to both you and your opponent.

Firstly as to "who cares", you obviously do and everybody that has responded to this post.

Secondly, do not take this thread personaly, no one is telling you how to play CM, the discussions are trying to determine a set of values for what is unrealistic which is perfectly reasonable, if this thread was a petition to CM to somehow restrict the use of ceratin units in the next patch i could understand your ire, but it isn't so calm down.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Personally I like "realistic" games and I would seek out opponents with the same attitude. So if played someone who did some sort of unrealistic suicide recon (whether it be a two-man scout team, tank-less crews or a jeep) then I simply would not be inclined to play them again since our two approaches to CM are different. Not wrong, just different.

But, before anyone rushes that Kubelwagen forward, please think of the little pixelfrauen and pixelkinder. :'-(

[Praetori]

I can't make up my mind about this one.

Nowadays driving comparatively soft skinned vehicles along the road until someone decides to shoot at them seems like common enough practice (basically Afghanistan and Iraq).

Back in the days the German aufklärungs units with motorcycles went full tilt into and through enemy held areas. This was of course more about creating an exploit and breach rather than scouting.

I remember a thread from old CMx1 (either CMBO or CMBB) where people used cheap trucks for scouting and there was much lamentation.

From what I've seen the kübel crews seem to go hard in reverse as soon as they spot the enemy. One could argue that (with the relative spotting and C2) the crews actually don't KNOW the enemy IS there and therefore it's a valid tactic, though slightly gamey.

[Sergei]

Nowadays driving comparatively soft skinned vehicles along the road until someone decides to shoot at them seems like common enough practice (basically Afghanistan and Iraq).

No it's not. Why do people repeatedly mistake real life recce for gamey suicide recce? It's like comparing a TOW-2 to a Scud because both are 'guided missiles'.

In game, you are sending an unsupported unit out to find out where the enemy is, knowing that they will die but you will anyway know what happened to them. In real life a single vehicle like that would just vanish without a trace and you might learn about its fate weeks later when Taliban reports that they hold your men as hostages. That's not recce. It becomes recce when you send a whole column of vehicles that way, and at least one of them makes it back to relay to their commander what they saw. Furthermore, that's the kind of thing that makes sense operationally, not tactically. In Combat Mission you are already past the operational recce phase and are closing in for a kill.

[noob]

I can't make up my mind about this one.

Nowadays driving comparatively soft skinned vehicles along the road until someone decides to shoot at them seems like common enough practice (basically Afghanistan and Iraq).

Back in the days the German aufklärungs units with motorcycles went full tilt into and through enemy held areas. This was of course more about creating an exploit and breach rather than scouting.

I remember a thread from old CMx1 (either CMBO or CMBB) where people used cheap trucks for scouting and there was much lamentation.

From what I've seen the kübel crews seem to go hard in reverse as soon as they spot the enemy. One could argue that (with the relative spotting and C2) the crews actually don't KNOW the enemy IS there and therefore it's a valid tactic, though slightly gamey.

The specific situation i was referring to was that the player knew there were enemy units in the area he drove the Kubelwagen, it was basically a suicide mission to trigger guns.

As mentioned in the link i posted in a reply according to the field manuals the Germans used horses, bicycles and armored cars to scout, all of which allowed the scouting units to return fire if engaged, the bicycle scouts could be up to company strength but were rarely used if the enemy was suspected of being a large formation unless the terrain was to restrictive to armored cars which were the units of choice in such missions.

A single Kubelwagen with a driver cannot practically engage the enemy if spotted so it would not constitute a viable scout unit in WW2, so if one wanted to add some realism to a CM battle the use of non armed vehicles as advanced scouts would have to be banned.

Armored cars, half tracks and foot units would all be able to defend themselves if attacked so they would all constitute a viable advance scout unit.

As for modern warfare the same rule would apply as i inagine most soft skinned vehicles used as an advance unit in combat have at least a mounted MG to protect themselves.

[Praetori]

The specific situation i was referring to was that the player knew there were enemy units in the area he drove the Kubelwagen, it was basically a suicide mission to trigger guns.

As mentioned in the link i posted in a reply according to the field manuals the Germans used horses, bicycles and armored cars to scout, all of which allowed the scouting units to return fire if engaged, the bicycle scouts could be up to company strength but were rarely used if the enemy was suspected of being a large formation unless the terrain was to restrictive to armored cars which were the units of choice in such missions.

A single Kubelwagen with a driver cannot practically engage the enemy if spotted so it would not constitute a viable scout unit in WW2, so if one wanted to add some realism to a CM battle the use of non armed vehicles as advanced scouts would have to be banned.

Armored cars, half tracks and foot units would all be able to defend themselves if attacked so they would all constitute a viable advance scout unit.

As for modern warfare the same rule would apply as i inagine most soft skinned vehicles used as an advance unit in combat have at least a mounted MG to protect themselves.

I agree completely. In the case where you KNOW about an enemy position, sending a single jeep or truck to "recon by dying" is indeed gamey.

Sergei: You're correct of course, I was merely pointing out that using soft skinned vehicles for recce isn't always gamey.

[noob]

No it's not. Why do people repeatedly mistake real life recce for gamey suicide recce? It's like comparing a TOW-2 to a Scud because both are 'guided missiles'.

In game, you are sending an unsupported unit out to find out where the enemy is, knowing that they will die but you will anyway know what happened to them. In real life a single vehicle like that would just vanish without a trace and you might learn about its fate weeks later when Taliban reports that they hold your men as hostages. That's not recce. It becomes recce when you send a whole column of vehicles that way, and at least one of them makes it back to relay to their commander what they saw. Furthermore, that's the kind of thing that makes sense operationally, not tactically. In Combat Mission you are already past the operational recce phase and are closing in for a kill.

This comment is also supported in the German field manual, groups of armored cars or platoons / companies of bike riders were sent out on recce missions with at least one radio car or carrier to relay information back to the main body, the recce units were expected to be able to conduct a fighting withdrawal or force back a weaker opponent so basically they needed to be numerous, armed and have radio communications.

[DLaurier]

But, before anyone rushes that Kubelwagen forward, please think of the little pixelfrauen and pixelkinder. :'-(

this.

In the CMx1 games, I tended to treat my units as real people.

You give me a German company, and I guarantee you I will give my units lives outside the game.

Hauptman Krebs is a secret anti-nazi conspirator who regularly corresponds with his old prewar CO Klaus Staufenberg. (yeah, that one)

Lt Bekker is fresh out of the accademy, and he worries constantly about how he can earn the respect of his platoon.

Sgt Wolk is an old veteran who cares for his troops like they were his children.

etc etc etc.

Once I get this game, I expect I'll be doing the same thing.

[Narsus]

In the instance you are describing its a gamey tactic. But whats the old saying, "all's fair in love and war."

Sounds like a judgement call, which is hard to enforce unless you don't want jeeps scouting at all.

My final thought, running men into their death has been the right of every commander since the dawn of history, you can't take that away now.

[Jaws]

In the instance you are describing its a gamey tactic. But whats the old saying, "all's fair in love and war."

Sounds like a judgement call, which is hard to enforce unless you don't want jeeps scouting at all.

My final thought, running men into their death has been the right of every commander since the dawn of history, you can't take that away now.

Yes indeed... now find the stupid soldier who just conduct that order... Ask US soldiers who served in Vietnam how they handled commanders giving orders like that.

[Narsus]

So telling someone to "go over the top" and run hopelessly into machinegun fire is any worse?

I dont care for gamey players, but its a part of the game. And I just dont see this as a problem, Jeeps can be used for scouting, anything can be. If you are doing Kamikaze drives into your enemies front lines just to see what he has then you dont know what you are doing, and if you find out THAT much about your enemy then maybe he should be advancing or defending a little more spaced out and orderly.

Like anything, take that perceived advantage and turn it against them, do anything! thats what the game is about

[gunnergoz]

...Like anything, take that perceived advantage and turn it against them, do anything! thats what the game is about

For you, clearly. Others may have a different take, equally valid (and equally fun to play.)

[JonS]

So telling someone to "go over the top" and run hopelessly into machinegun fire is any worse?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic here. It appears that you are trying to justify a gamey tactic by comparing it to a bad tactic. But that would be asinine, and I'm almost certain that couldn't be a good description of either you or your ability to debate a topic.

Could you clarify what you meant please.