Bocage and cover/concealment

[SteveP]

I've been spending a bunch of time noodling with one of the included scenarios (small/tiny one), using the editor, etc, and doing lots of testing and trials with it.

I've been struck by the ease with which the US infantry can advance across a bocage field against a vanilla infantry defense much of the time. What I find most significant is:

1. Given a couple of binocs and a few other spotters, the attackers will start to spot guys in the opposite bocage pretty quickly (within a minute most of the time -- at least with a contact). I have the defense set to a short ambush, but they often seem to give themselves away pretty easily (regular troops, but bonuses and C2 can vary).

2. Given a few mortars (along with the fire from everyone else), those guys behind the bocage die or are routed pretty quickly.

So far, I haven't figured out how to optimize the defense to prevent this from happening. Possibly I will get some ideas as I look at other scenarios, but perhaps someone will be able to point out something that I might be missing.

[MOSwas71331]

My CMBN experience has been totally the other way. I've tried the demo training scenario six times, and my BEST result was to get 6 men of a 12 man US rifle squad cowering in trees at the cost of the other six men AND two Shermans which had fired smoke to cover the squad's entrance into the field.

The squad racked up a handful of German casualties, I guess from firing at German muzzle flashes. The Shermans also fired off some MG ammo in addition to the smoke rounds, so they must have seen something. Neither Sherman was credited with any German casualties, so they couldn't have seen much.

Frankly, I find the whole CMBN control interface frustrating. To take just one example, the + (plus) and - (minus) keys are supposed to take you to other units, and they do -- sometimes. Other times, I can repeatedly press those keys and not move from the unit I earlier selected.

I have CMBO-CMBB-CMAK on my PowerMac, but that machine has died and isn't worth fixing. I now use an iMac, and I was excited to learn CMBN would run on it. Frustration was the demo, however, is killing my enthusiasm.

[MikeyD]

That sounds odd, I just tried +/-ing around the units and the only time I could get it to not work was with the artillery sub-window open. Otherwise it works every time.

There is something. The TAB key toggles 'lock-to-unit'. Locked-to-unit, the +/- keys will jump behind each unit as you hit the keys. With 'lock-to-unit' TAB toggled off the camera will stay in position as you +/- through the units that are in front of you and will only shift camera view when the selected unit is offscreen.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Liek the OP, I too find it easy to cross bocage using US squads. However there is a big "but"! I can only do it easily if I have achieved three things:

1) Spotted the enemy

2) Have superior numbers/firepower

3) Have overwatch/suppression

On top of these, direct-fire mortars are a BIG plus for point 2 and if I can get them in action then it's game-over for the opposition (unless they can counter it, which mostly they can't).

Currently the TacAI helps me out considerably by allowing me to spot enemy pretty easily, typically by simply opening fire too early. Also I think the (?) contact icons are too 'accurate' in showing me exactly where the noises, etc, are coming from. I liked CMx1's "ghost tank" sound contact.

Also I do think the HMG/LMG fire from the enemy, once contact is made, is too 'light' since they are firing in bursts. I would have thought that contact with an enemy under 100m would at least entail a higher rate of rounds as opposed to regular aimed bursts at more distant targets. As a result I do feel that the Germans are not using their 'strength' of a belt-fed MG at squad-level to good effect and that in-game the rifle-based firepower of the US squad is much more effective in comparison. I know Germans had smaller/depleted squads though, but I thought the presence of the LMG/HMG effectively evened up the odds in the actual fighting in Normandy.

I haven't played many scenerios where I try to defend bocage myself. I have been ruminating on tactics I would need to employ to counter my own assault tactics. I haven't come to a conclusion yet, although cover-arcs and hiding will definitely play a part!

So overall, I do feel it's too easy to suppress and over-run bocage defenses, mainly from the fact I can easily locate the enemy and the German squad firepower cannot match that of the US squad (especially if you include direct-fire mortars). Then again, maybe it's because I'm doing the right thing!

[gunnergoz]

It would help me envision people's problems better if they posted what level of difficulty they are playing at, as well as some details of their system, so I know if they are on a Mac or PC at least...or like the one fellow here posted, playing through a Mac onto an IPad. (Cool!) Also if they have edited the command keys and if they are playing WEGO or RTS. Thank you.

[Blackcat]

I am also coming to the conclusion that fighting through the bocage is not really difficult. If I can get a tank or a direct fire mortar into the line it is almost too easy. The US squads can put down a massive number of rounds and the under-modeling of HMGs leave the Germans with no effective reply.

However, I have yet to play in bocage country against a human opponent. I suspect it might be much harder than against the AI. A human will probably make much more, and more intelligent, use of cover arcs and hiding, will be more inclined to have a bocage position linked in to a wider, more integrated, defence system and could use small scout units to "fire and run", forcing the US player to slow down and waste ammo or rush forward into an ambush.

Dunno, but what we might be seeing is the old story of the AI not providing the most challenging game experience - though that evil git Paper Tiger pulls off a few nasty moments in his scenarios (as do other good designers).

As per GunnerOz's request: I play exclusively WEGO, on elite setting. The only time I use the keyboard is for the backspace key, the tab key (when I want to really get down and watch a nice replay) and the lateral camera controls when I want to scan along a bocage hedge to find the gaps.

[gunnergoz]

Thanks, Blackcat, it does help me understand where you're coming from.

[womble]

Liek the OP, I too find it easy to cross bocage using US squads. However there is a big "but"! I can only do it easily if I have achieved three things:

1) Spotted the enemy

2) Have superior numbers/firepower

3) Have overwatch/suppression

I find that #1 is largely optional. With 2) it's fairly easy to achieve 3) (suppression) with assigned area fires.

[Michael Emrys]

...the only time I could get it to not work was with the artillery sub-window open.

An open arty sub-window seems to trump every other function. So far, I haven't found anything that will work until I close that window. Not a bad problem once I got used to it, but I tripped over it a few times at first.

Michael

[mjkerner]

There is something. The TAB key toggles 'lock-to-unit'. Locked-to-unit, the +/- keys will jump behind each unit as you hit the keys. With 'lock-to-unit' TAB toggled off the camera will stay in position as you +/- through the units that are in front of you and will only shift camera view when the selected unit is offscreen.

Nice find, Mikey.

[SteveP]

I don't have any objection to what directions this thread might take, but ...

I imagined that bocage defense would have near perfect concealment and excellent cover -- hence the rhino. I could be wrong about this, of course, and if I am I would like to learn more about that.

In CMBN, concealment is good but not excellent. Some significant portion of the defending force will reveal itself, at least as contacts if not full spot for a brief time (exception: Hiding, but Hiding presents some significant AI scripting problems if the AI is controlling the defense). It's just a matter of waiting awhile for the contacts to appear.

In CMBN, cover is good but not excellent. Mortars can take out the contacts that appear, and a well-managed, patient assault by the rifle squads, with overwatch by MGs, can handle what's left.

From what I see, give me a vanilla rifle company and any rhinos that appear can just head on down the road ...

[Sven Dufva]

I've noticed that the troops are well hidden as long as they don't open fire. After that they draw everybody's attention and casualties start piling up. There is though an effective way of minimizing casualties for the defending side.

Give every squad in a platoon a minimal covering arc and place them behind the bocage. Once the enemy is close (~50 meters) remove the arcs and let the squads open fire with everything they got for 10-15 seconds. Break contact, fall back ~20 meters from the bocage and re-issue the arcs. Your troops can't be spotted through the vegetation at that distance and the enemy will lose the LOS. Retake your positions and lose the arcs again if/when necessary.

This way a platoon can cut down an advancing company within minutes with only slight casualties without mortars or artillery, required no enemy tanks are involved.

Just finished playing through the german campaign and managed to frustrate every enemy counter-attack with these tactics. Lost 26 KIA, 32 WIA and 2 light vehicles. The best game EVER!

[Pak40]

Frankly, I find the whole CMBN control interface frustrating. To take just one example, the + (plus) and - (minus) keys are supposed to take you to other units, and they do -- sometimes. Other times, I can repeatedly press those keys and not move from the unit I earlier selected.

I have CMBO-CMBB-CMAK on my PowerMac, but that machine has died and isn't worth fixing. I now use an iMac, and I was excited to learn CMBN would run on it. Frustration was the demo, however, is killing my enthusiasm.

I urge you to stick with the game. Once you learn the interface you will see that it is superior to CMx1 series. The left mouse drag/right mouse drag is far better than using keyboard WSAD or edge navigation. Also, the + and - do in fact choose the next unit, however, you have to be in VIEWLOCK(tab) mode in order to be "taken" to the unit.

[womble]

I urge you to stick with the game. Once you learn the interface you will see that it is superior to CMx1 series.

It surely is better. It remains deeply infuriating at times though. Especially around bridges...

[Michael Emrys]

I imagined that bocage defense would have near perfect concealment and excellent cover...

Yeah, I would have thought so too going from the historical record. This should be especially true if combined with foxholes or trenches, but apparently there are problems with those that are as yet unresolved. So far from my own experience it seems far too easy for a tank to drive up to a hedgerow and start laying down effective fire across the field. If that could have been done historically, there would have been almost no need to breach under fire, which historically was a big deal.

Michael

[SteveP]

I know this is probably a post in vain, but FWIW:

I am not looking for advice on how to defend a bocage line when I am in charge of the defense.

This is about the AI being in control of the defense. I edit the AI scripting in an existing scenario in order to test different tactics, etc. I have not found any reasonable way to script a defense of a bocage line given a well-managed attack by an infantry company. No tanks required (in fact, they may just end up being target practice for any shreks in the area ).

OTOH, I am now curious to see if I can script a well-managed attack by the AI, given what I have learned about bocage defenses. Could be interesting ...

[SteveP]

As a lark I tried playing Busting the Bocage (which I had never played before) as the U.S. using only the infantry. I let the tanks sit in the set up zone. Obviously, I wasn't going to win with that kind of handicap. Still, I ended up with only a minor defeat, and I think would have gotten a draw if I had studied the map more carefully.

Again, it was the same two factors that allowed me to get a good way across the map: lack of concealment in the bocage and the effectiveness of my mortars against every contact I spotted. I just needed to do a better job of protecting my rifle squads as they moved up.