Some Impressions and Questions

[Tux]

Hi guys. I've been playing for a few weeks now and really enjoying it. BF have done an outstanding job and I rarely like to criticise their efforts but there are just one or two issues I wanted to discuss. I know they might have come up before but I didn't think I saw a proper answer as to whether the issue would be investigated.

I just played Barkmann's Corner for the first time. I had two AT teams and a Panzerschreck in the wooded area on my far right flank with the teams' two parent squads a few metres behind them. They carried out a perfect ambush on the first Sherman that rolled up, which fell to the first Faust fired its way. The crew were bailing when it brewed up, unfortunately for them.

Next turn, two more Shermans were taken out by the AT guys, but this time all ten tank crewmen made it out ok and immediately started suppressing the buggery out of my men with their Colts. Next turn I moved up the two full squads to take out the crewmen, only to have the US tankers charge into the forest, killing 6 of my soldiers for no loss. One of my squads was rattled enough that they fled. I have now lost control of the forested area and taken 12 casualties, all caused by tankers' pistols.

Now, my men were only 30m from the tanks when the crews bailed and weren't in command, so I can understand that the tankers' weapons could be quite effective, but this isn't the first time I've had a multi-unit AT ambush routed by the dead tanks' crews. I'd almost rather leave the buggers in the tanks where they aren't causing me any trouble! I can't help but feel that tankers shouldn't be in any fit state to overcome two infantry squads very often at all, and even less often when they've just left a knocked out vehicle.

Secondly, I am now convinced that my MG42 gunners and Squad Leaders are far more likely to be hit than any other squad member. Is this a feature representing Allied soldiers picking their targets or something?

Thirdly, if you have an SPG which has been immobilised, how can you tell where the limits of its horizontal gun traverse are? I'm trying to area fire with a crippled Stummel in a PBEM at the moment, but I have no way of knowing how far to the side is too far for the gun to traverse and if I target somewhere too far to the side the Stummel spends the minute doing nothing.

I think that's it for now. Apart from the discussion points above this game is a work of art. I love it!

[Renaud]

In my experience with cmbn engine so far, small mistakes can result in big losses, much more so than cmx1 where your soldiers to some extent took care of themselves in an abstracted way. So radical results were much less likely. Some of the stories on the forum have been outright comical. Your's is kinda sad...but awesome if you are the guy playing the allies, hehe.

Suggestion/questions:

1. Did you move your squads in with hunt command, or assault? If normal, quick or fast move toward a known enemy position (known to you, not to the unit moving) especially in woods, they will usually run to their doom and be wiped out to a man while inflicting no casualties in return.

2. I can't remember if shermy crews have one, but don't a lot of armored vehicle crews have 1 grease gun or tommy gun? That's more firepower than 5 pistols together, especially point blank in woods.

It would be nice if crews bailed due to hits on their vehicles were shaken or pinned for at least a bit, but this could cause undesired side effects like not being able to run away and getting machine gunned.

[JonS]

It would be nice if crews bailed due to hits on their vehicles were shaken or pinned for at least a bit

Uh ... they are. Mine are anyway. What have you been feeding yours - spinach?

[gunnergoz]

No, it seems to be the case in some scenarios that bailed crews continue the aggressive mindset that they were programmed for when mounted.

*******spoiler alert******

I am in the middle of Huzzar and my scout teams managed to annihilate the German spahwagen recon detachment but the dismounted German crewmen are individually attacking my M5's and M8's, armed with a pistol against a crew with MG's and 37mm HE. Bravery is one thing but this is true fanaticism...one M8 crew racked up 5 such kills within about 7-8 minutes of one-man kamikaze charges.

I've seen it happen elsewhere so it is not confined to this scenario. It looks like the crews continue on their way to the German objective zones, dismounted or not, and they doggedly attack any Yanks who get in their way.

[JonS]

Se up a test scen, with tanks opposed by ... anything that will kill them. Start scen as 1-player, scen author test. Press 'start'. Note condition of crews as they exit their tanks.

[ClarkWGriswold]

It would be nice if crews bailed due to hits on their vehicles were shaken or pinned for at least a bit, but this could cause undesired side effects like not being able to run away and getting machine gunned.

It always amazes me when someone brings up the heroic, unstoppable bailed tank crews that wreak havoc on infantry and mop up the enemy with nothing but pistols. I haven't had time to play a lot of CMBN yet, but in the games that I have played (including Barkmann's Corner as the Americans, twice), I have yet to see a crew that doesn't panic and run as soon as they bail. In fact, I've had more than one crew bail out of a perfectly fine vehicle (hit, but not damaged and certainly not destroyed). These crews not only bail out, but by the time they've become un-rattled their tank (that was perfectly fine when they got out, remember) is destroyed, because instead of firing back, reversing, popping smoke, etc. they got out and left their tank there to take multiple hits from whatever spooked them in the first place. Same thing goes double for Puma and Greyhound crews.

[dieseltaylor]

I thought this behaviour was an acknowledged fault to be addressed.

[Blackcat]

I thought this behaviour was an acknowledged fault to be addressed.

I thought that too. Something to do with the orders the tank had when it was hit.

[WineCape]

John Wayne tank crews are being looked at, AFAIK.

[Speedy]

Yep I've seen the Rambo bailed tank crews as well.

[ng cavscout]

Yep I've seen the Rambo bailed tank crews as well.

Yes you have, you mutt you.

[gunnergoz]

John Wayne tank crews are being looked at, AFAIK.

OK, thanks. I just posted (and subsequently deleted) the question on the known issues thread, not knowing of your comment here. If they are looking at it, that's great. It is not a game killer by any means but it does sort of destroy the suspension of disbelief when it happens consecutively and often in the same scenario.

[Lee_Vincent]

I had a Sherman taken out by a faust, from which the crew bailed and took up position around the tank. A German squad about 10m in a house away un-hid and started shooting at the crew - end result, 1 crewman KIA, routed German squad with 3 KIA.

Had a similar result with a German squad slow moving forward in forest encountering a 3 crew in a house, the squad was shot to pieces.

The German squads were regular in both cases.

Since these are not typical, and there is an acknowledged issue, not a big problem, but aside from any other factors I do question the effectivenes of pistols as used by crewmen against targets in substantial cover, any morale factors aside.

[gunnergoz]

I wonder what veteran WW2 tankers would say about this? Not that many are left today, bless 'em. I'd bet they'd bust a gut laughing about it. But losing your tank was a pretty traumatic event, I'll bet, even if you all survived, which was clearly not always the case. If you got out with nothing more than a concussion, you were probably lucky. And you had just lost the only home you'd known since you landed on the beach. The feeling of suddenly being naked without a couple of inches of steel around you must have been very disconcerting too. Their training was to return to the rear to draw a new tank and I suspect that most of them did that as soon as they were up to it. But if they were cornered, they did have weapons with them and were trained to use them...even the .30 cal machine guns were subject to being taken off and used for dismounted defense if necessary and IIRC, most tanks had a tripod for just that possibility.

[Blackcat]

"even the .30 cal machine guns were subject to being taken off and used for dismounted defense if necessary and IIRC, most tanks had a tripod for just that possibility."

Good grief! I never knew that. Sounds like someone in the chain of command Stateside had an attack of the clevers (probably pre-war). I wonder how often, if ever, those tripods got used.

[JonS]

I wonder how often, if ever, those tripods got used.

As a result of the tank being knocked out in combat? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 'zero' (0).

I can readily seeing them being used, and used often, when setting up perimeter defences of night harbors and the like. But I just cannot see a crew who - after watching the side of their tank glow red then burst as Mr AP Round comes for a visit - having the presence of mind, or time, to extract the MG from it's mount and grab the tripod on their way out the door.

[gunnergoz]

I seem to recall seeing them in old Ordnance department photos of tank interiors, where the placement of all the controls, spares and accessories were depicted. Also have seen them strapped to turret exteriors in some photos. I doubt they were used much, except perhaps in a bivouac scenario. The tankers loved to pick up guns from wherever and if you look closely at contemporary photos you will often see Thompsons or other weapons slung from the exterior or sitting on top of the turret. Bailing out was a real possibility for these guys and I know that if I were one of them, I'd be tempted to liberate a grease gun or carbine if I was not issued one for the vehicle. As for actually using the tripod lugging it around with the .30 and its ammo, well, I doubt most tankers would bother since it would weigh them down too much. Again, its the old story of you are trained one way and behave in the field in quite another.

[hoolaman]

I think there should be a decent chance of them bailing without any weapons.

Its one thing to jump out if your tank breaks down and take the grease gun and all your gear with you, but when your hair is on fire and your buddy's brains are all over you I think grabbing the gun would be low priority.

edit: What JonS said.

[gunnergoz]

Don't know what actual practice was, but they did have the option to wear the .45 in a shoulder hoster so it would always be with them. As you say though, there was probably often little time to pick up anything if you didn't already have it on you.

[Tux]

Cheers for the responses guys. Yeah, the very occasional tank crew overcoming a two-man faust team with a grease gun and pistols vs. Kar 98ks at <30m range might be relatively realistic and a neat possibility within the game. It's just that it seems almost standard procedure and a platoon of infantry being needed to protect the faust team after each kill that gets me a bit.

How about the Platoon leaders and gunners accounting for the huge majority of squad casualties suffered? Do others experience this? Is it because they spend less time in cover/ are more likely to be targeted/ etc.?

[Baneman]

Re. the gunner - I would think that since he's the guy most likely to be semi-upright while his buddies hug the earth it's not unreasonable for him to "cop one".

Re. Leaders getting hit - that's just Murphy's Law - again, you probably notice when it's the leader and not otherwise so much ( I know I do ).

One thing I did notice in a recent Pbem - Platoon HQ got hit and Leader was taken out. Later one of the remaining 2 guys, the XO, was also hit. Despite moving the last guy ( with flag icon ) next to the Platoon squads, they all remained out of C2 - which is pretty realistic IMHO as the actual leader was dead/wounded. Doesn't do much for your C2 having the Lootenant's batman nearby