xian Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I was reading 'D Day' by Anthony Beevor last night, and he mentions that it took a Rhino tank a good few minutes to cut through a bocage hedge. Two and a half minutes seems to be the best time. In CMBN the Rhinos mow through bocage in seconds. Was it too difficult to model a realistic time in the game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Pretty sure I have seen footage of a Rhino equiped Sherman cutting straight through bocage. Though maybe it was a small bocage. edit - maybe the Rhino equiped Stuarts took longer? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Now this is interesting. I wonder if Steve knows about this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Solved - seconds is fine. Rhino Stuart through bocage in seconds, though maybe that is small bocage. http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675038871_United-States-soldiers_heavy-hedgerow_beach-obstacles-used-as-hedgerow-cutters 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xian Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Well, well... the video does seem to suggest that Anthony Beevor got it wrong. Strange, I thought he was pretty good on his research. He also mentioned that blowing a hole in the bocage took huge amounts of explosive. Maybe he is talking about a different kind of hedge??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I found that video link in a thread on Matrix Games Panzer Command Ost Front forum, I won't give a direct link as it may be considered commercial but the thread is called 'The Bocage' currently on about page 5 of that forum. Looks like a very interesting discussion and I wouldn't discount Beevor just yet as I am sure there was much thicker/older bocage around as well as the smaller stuff like in that video. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I'm sure bocage varies - look at 0.25 in that video - tank cuts through some thin stuff and then - bang ! dead stop. Hard to tell if they're stopped by something other than hedge though, but the stuff it's cutting through looks tall, but not so thick. Maybe a randomised timer between 5 and 60 seconds to cut through ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Also video shows that we need some dust/smoke kicked up in the game when we tear through a hedge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I have to say I was astounded by how effortlessly they get through. Sometimes, sure, but sometimes there must be some effort involved... I'm hoping this will be a patch tweak. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 If you search under my name and use the search word bocage I have written about it for the last 6 years. The nuts and bolts of it are that it was a morale booster/PR exercise and that against proper bocage a difficult exercise. However I do provide quotes etc : ) And somewhere or other a US tanker wrote about the problems and difficulties ... and I I find that book again ....... BTW if you are cynical you might believe that the points of penetration were pre-chosen - and even then one came to grief - which argues expectation was higher than reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Solved - seconds is fine. Rhino Stuart through bocage in seconds, though maybe that is small bocage. http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675038871_United-States-soldiers_heavy-hedgerow_beach-obstacles-used-as-hedgerow-cutters This video is a wonderful confidence boost in what happens in-game. In game is just like what we see in this video.... ... all except for 0:28. I reckon we should have a few of those: THUNK... oops, that bit is _solid_. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 For myself I would expect that in most cases any attempt to breach would have been scouted on foot to find a suitable location before lining the tank up for it's charge. As for gameplay purposes I am generally happy with how it is represented at the moment. It is cumbersome enough scanning bocage for places that infantry can cross without having 'Rhinoable' bocage and 'Non-Rhinoable' bocage to look for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 A "% to hit" on Bocage might be called for. :-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Also, it looks like the Stuart has to take a pretty long run-up to those bits of hedge to go blasting through like that. The Rhinos in the game can roll through thick bocage with a '2-inch punch'... Then again, it's entirely possible to use the editor to make stretches of Bocage which a Rhino can't get through, with trees in the hedge (there was one shot where the Stuart nearly hit a tree that looked like it might've stopped it dead) or 'Thick Forest' ground types under the Bocage feature. Dunno what these look like once a breaching team's had a go at them though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 If you look at that same site, they also have videos of an M-4 having the Cullins cutter welded on and then the tank goes on to bust a hedgerow with it. The M-4 has an easier time of it than the light, which makes sense since it is twice as heavy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 There is damage for hitting bocage and other objects. Randomly cumulative. I believe wooden fences don't cost. : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 There is damage for hitting bocage and other objects. Randomly cumulative. I believe wooden fences don't cost. : ) I have not seen it yet but that makes mucho sense. This game is very well thought out indeed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 This game is very well thought out indeed. Indeed! I am not sure that there are levels within levels for the bocage. So the bocage is either a big bocage or the smaller one. So the time it takes to destroy one might just be a constant rather than saying "This bocage has 9000hp and this one has 7456" within the same tile. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I have not seen it yet but that makes mucho sense. This game is very well thought out indeed. I've had a tank immobilised by a reverse bocage-cut... To me, cumulative damage to tracks from terrain effects makes little sense in most cases. There should be a 'chance to throw a track' for maneuvers likely to do such things, and a cumulative 'clogging' score that might or might not get added to by another (possibly overlapping) set of maneuvers. There was a tanker on here a while back saying that tracks don't 'wear out' in the tactical timescale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Indeed! I am not sure that there are levels within levels for the bocage. So the bocage is either a big bocage or the smaller one. So the time it takes to destroy one might just be a constant rather than saying "This bocage has 9000hp and this one has 7456" within the same tile. That is a good point. It real life, each piece of bocage would be different- not some standard. For a game, there's got to be a bit of abstraction, but in real life they could find some good weak spots in tough places, yet in some there might not be anyplace that would be easier to get through. The combination of various plants of various ages, thickness, steepness of the banks, height, etc. would all vary to some degree. In the game I figure that if they get a good average for the time it took to break through, that's good enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Whilst track damage is probably more - it breaks it doesn't break - the cumulative damage might also reflect other non-track damage so the result may be correct overall. I can see why BF might avoid having break/no break as a design feature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I've had a tank immobilised by a reverse bocage-cut... To me, cumulative damage to tracks from terrain effects makes little sense in most cases. There should be a 'chance to throw a track' for maneuvers likely to do such things, and a cumulative 'clogging' score that might or might not get added to by another (possibly overlapping) set of maneuvers. There was a tanker on here a while back saying that tracks don't 'wear out' in the tactical timescale. With all respect to the tanker you mention, WW2 Tracks are not the massive, wide modern ones made with superior steels and there is more than just track damage at risk. I concede that I am not a WW2 tanker, but the idea of cumulative damage to the running gear (which may not just be track damage) makes sense in particular because the Sherman and the lights had volute spring suspensions that had all sorts of parts hanging off the hull that could be damaged by tree trunks, roots, buried pipes, etc. The M-4 and M-5 series did not have modern sleek and sturdy undercarriages that go with torsion bar suspensions such as were on the Tiger, Panther, M-24, M-26 and M-18. Also the M-4 and M-5 transmissions were in the front making the drive sprocket vulnerable too, whereas most modern tanks have the drive sprockets in the rear and less vulnerable to "head on" damage. For all these reasons, I think modern comparisons are not completely relevant and that cumulative damage to the running gear, particularly on the wartime M-4 and M-5's, is a certainty if the tanks are repeatedly run through bocage, fences and rock walls. If it is not the tracks failing, then there is a good chance that suspension components will be damaged or the drive sprocket damaged or knocked out of alignment, resulting in a thrown track. Just my 2 bits but I welcome anyone who has access to wartime memoirs or documents that discuss the subject. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Hi gentlemen, I am recently reading Fey´s "Panzerkampf im Bild" (german, I do not know about an english issue) that includes lots of combat experiences, mostly Waffen-SS. One story located in the Normandy fightings, states the following about track damage: In the course of driving through the rubble of bombed out towns the tank (Tiger or Panther) kept slipping over its left track. The remedy was to exchange several track links. That story indicates for me, that track guide horns occasionally broke off. Sounds reasonable. But so far I have never seen this simulated in any AFV models, no matter how battered or damaged their look was. Is it a detail that was overlooked so far? Any comments? (On the other hand I have not found photographic evidence of flush inner sides of tracks so far...) http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1014276924/thoughts+about+track+damage This is fun but about Tiger maintenance in general http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10618 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Also, it looks like the Stuart has to take a pretty long run-up to those bits of hedge to go blasting through like that. The Rhinos in the game can roll through thick bocage with a '2-inch punch'... Then again, it's entirely possible to use the editor to make stretches of Bocage which a Rhino can't get through, with trees in the hedge (there was one shot where the Stuart nearly hit a tree that looked like it might've stopped it dead) or 'Thick Forest' ground types under the Bocage feature. Dunno what these look like once a breaching team's had a go at them though. Now _that_ is both fully evil and wonderful I think I suddenly want to make a map, just for the fun of inflicting that on the poor players GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickmow Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Fascinating link to that video, a further search on that site reveals another M5A1 going at a hedge from about 20 seconds in, after the 105 elevating sequence. it says sherman but its the M5 your looking at http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675075108_United-States-howitzer_World-War-II_M-4-Sherman-tank OUCH ! wonder if the driver or indeed the rest of the crew had to brace against the impact....wonder if he lost his no claims bonus too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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