New GUI features w/ pics!

[Vinnart]

Well not real yet, but really would like to see these features added to improve the GUI. The information for the experience level could be condensed into the box to the left leaving room for FLOOR/PASSENGER status ala CMx1. This would eliminate having to move camera, zoom in , count floors to find out this information by just looking at the GUI, and would be especially useful to the RTS player (Ever have a bunch of guys running through a multistory building at once while viewing from obscure camera angles?). For the experience level two variations come to mind that a flyover text for more detail could be used to provide spelling out the experience level if needed for those who cant catch on to the system RED=bad, and the more toward GREEN in spectrum the better.. The first variation uses the Red to Green 5 level bar we are used to in CMx2 GUI. In this pic the bar is showing as YELLOW notating he is a Veteran currently on the 4th floor.

Conscript= NO color,

Green = red bar

Regular = orange bar

Veteran = Yellow bar

Elite = Yellow/green bar

Crack = Green bar

The second version uses colored letters ousing the same spectrum except conscript, and green both show as a red "C" or "G"

Regular= orange "R"

Veteran= yellow 'V"

Elite = Yellow green "E"

Crack = Green 'K"

The 3rd feature uses the best of both worlds for the unit ammo; intergers for when more precise information is needed, and color for more general information at a glance. This system uses red, yellow, green.

GREEN = ammo is at least at 50% of what max load out can be for that unit and type of ammo

Type turns to YELLOW when ammo drops below 50%

Type turns to RED when ammo drops below 15%

What this does is alert the player at a GLANCE of the ammo SITREP. If type turns red it will catch the attention of the player, and now may be a good time to be more concerned with the actual integer count. This works basically how colored text is used in the equipment damage vehicle panel. When your eye notices red something is up. Other than that, when something is green it does not require the player much attention when it comes to the actual ammo count as green means they are good. Cmx1 used a similar logic of using both colored bars and integers to give the player a clearer picture of the SITREP both at a glance, and with detail when needed.

Cmx2 has a very good GUI. These are just some of those tweaks that make it that much better. Unfortunately these changes cannot be modded and will have to be implemented by Battlefront.

(and no, I'm not requesting a unit portrait of Clint Eastwood too. That is from a mod i made.)

[womble]

In this pic the bar is showing as YELLOW notating he is a Veteran currently on the 4th floor.

I've said it before, and I'll obviously have to keep saying it: I would not have known what colour that blob was if you hadn't told me. Could've been green, could've been yellow. About 10% of this game's constituency suffer from some sort of colour vision deficiency. A plea to all interface designers, on behalf of that 10%: please don't rely on colour to impart or highlight important information.

The second version uses colored letters ousing the same spectrum except conscript, and green both show as a red "C" or "G"

Keeping a letter code is a good example of how not to rely on colour alone I vote for this one.

The 3rd feature uses the best of both worlds for the unit ammo; intergers for when more precise information is needed, and color for more general information at a glance. This system uses red, yellow, green.

GREEN = ammo is at least at 50% of what max load out can be for that unit and type of ammo

Type turns to YELLOW when ammo drops below 50%

Type turns to RED when ammo drops below 15%

What this does is alert the player at a GLANCE of the ammo SITREP. If type turns red it will catch the attention of the player...

Not necessarily. As above, colour blind players will barely be able to see the red-on-black, but even for colour-perfect vision, red-on-black isn't a very high contrast pair of colours. It would be better if you could use something like a different background colour (white, even) for when the situation becomes critical.

Cmx2 has a very good GUI.

I'd say that's laying it on just a little thick. The UI just about does what it absolutely must. It's "adequate", not "very good". Which is cool, cos it gives them lots to work on for the next game

These are just some of those tweaks that make it that much better. Unfortunately these changes cannot be modded and will have to be implemented by Battlefront.[

(and no, I'm not requesting a unit portrait of Clint Eastwood too. That is from a mod i made.)

[Vinnart]

Wombie, thanks for your feedback. You are very wrong about this point:

=womble;1262781]even for colour-perfect vision, red-on-black isn't a very high contrast pair of colours.

I am a professional artist and have studied the use of color more than the average joe. The MOST contrast one can get is black next to any primary, or secondary color. Next would be using complimentary colors next to each other I.E red next to green. Believe me there is entire science behind the subconscious and it’s relation to color. Ever notice most fast foods use orange, or orange/red in their logos? There is a reason for the color those choices.

As far as the experience level indicator, I personally like the single letter version better too, and would not care if all letters were just white since this is an area where color is not needed as each unique letter shape “R”, “V” ect.. is distinctive enough for the player to differentiate the experience levels. ALL are certain to agree they would like to have the return from Cmx1 of the floor/passenger for practical reasons, and this solves that.

In lieu of your comments I did some more brainstorming, and I think this is a winner to please all. You see the type stays white and the AMMO LEVEL INDICATOR is now small circles of red, green, and yellow. This solves the problem for color blind person, while helping those with poor vision like myself who do not want to keep squinting to read the integers especially when not necessary unless ammo is getting low which will tell the player at a glance by the showing of the color indicator.

The colored bars, and icons from CMSF were good in that they told the player the ammo sitrep at a GLANCE, which is especially important for RTS play, BUT this alone was too vague. OK, I am down to 1 red bar, well what does that mean? I’m low but do I have 5 rounds? 10 rounds? 0 rounds left? This is a good use of color red= bad, green = good, but does not give the more detailed story when necessary. So, integers were needed, BUT now we lost the color that gives the at a GLANCE. This gives it all, and once again we see CMx1 had it best, both color and text together to give the at a glance, and detail when needed. NOW WE HAVE IT ALL!

I still stick to my guns in saying it is an attractive, and overall well done GUI, but that does not say it cannot be improved with some practical features such as these for more tweaking. My only real criticism with the UI is the relative hotkey layout. It takes a less than optimal approach to RTS play in its current layout.

[JonS]

lol - you must have stuied at the wrong place then. I completely agree with womble, for the same reason.

Red next to green is high contrast? You've got to be kidding me.

[Vinnart]

Also I hear you, and certainly sympathsize about your condition, but Combat Mission utilizes good effective use of color, and I hope they never decide to lose it. I certainly would not like all orders to be the same color, or not have red or green C2 indicators and the like, but I really do think v3 is best for meeting everyones needs, and wants with these features.

[Vinnart]

lol - you must have stuied at the wrong place then. I completely agree with womble, for the same reason.

Red next to green is high contrast? You've got to be kidding me.

@Jons, Look up and study complimentary colors (colors opposite each other on the color wheel and their use. They create max contrast compared to other color combos, and when mixed neutralize each other creating more natural gray tones. I have been a painter for over 20yrs., and have a BFA in fine art. I know my business, and studied at the right place. All that aside though the thread is about improving the GUI with the FLOOR/PASSENGER status and color ammo situation indicators from Cmx1.

www.vincentmonaco.com to see some of my paintings. Notice how i use complimentary colors to get the most pop.

[sburke]

omfg color palette grogs!!

[guachi]

Lol... I never thought I'd see an artist expounding on color in a CM thread.

But the wide degree of professions make this a fun place, and certainly make the game better.

Oh, and I like the GUI changes. I'm not too fond of the default GUI, myself.

[Haggard Sketchy]

Yeah, CMx2 engine went from displaying ammo levels as percentage graphics to exact numbers. While I prefer the latter, both would be nice.

[Gpig]

Love you're ideas, Vinnart. Unless I'm confused, it seems that you've listed CRACK at a higher level than ELITE. I believe ELITE should hold the top spot (as it does in the game), and should have the GREEN color, not yellow/green.

Cheers,

Gpig

[Vinnart]

Love you're ideas, Vinnart. Unless I'm confused, it seems that you've listed CRACK at a higher level than ELITE. I believe ELITE should hold the top spot (as it does in the game), and should have the GREEN color, not yellow/green.

Cheers,

Gpig

Thanks, perhaps I am wrong and elite is highest as you say, but the main thing is the design concept, and how it improves giving information to the player. The more I think about it all experience letters "C' "V" ect.. should remain all white as each letter shape is distinctive enough. The color is only needed in the ammo sitrep indicators. With this you can cycle through units very fast and be alerted if an ammo type is low. A red ammo indicator will catch your eye and stick out. Guaranteed! What many do not realize is that the brain processes colors, and shape associations differently, and faster than reading text. This because when a person learns to read they start to mentally go through the process of vocalizing the word as they read which is something that stays with most people through their life from childhood learning to read techniques. This process takes more time. This is why effective use of color, and shape is important, and is more efficient in giving the player improved situation awareness at a GLANCE. Here is an example of shape incorporation to decipher information faster in my animated text mod: (still trying to make one for CMBN, but having problems getting it to work for some unknown reason)

Try this if you CMSF, and see if you cannot cycle through the units very fast while just looking at the text to get a clearer pictures of the actions of individual soldiers. I guarantee you spot different actions much, much faster.

[japinard]

Wombie, thanks for your feedback. You are very wrong about this point:

I am a professional artist and have studied the use of color more than the average joe. The MOST contrast one can get is black next to any primary, or secondary color. Next would be using complimentary colors next to each other I.E red next to green. Believe me there is entire science behind the subconscious and it’s relation to color. Ever notice most fast foods use orange, or orange/red in their logos? There is a reason for the color those choices.

As far as the experience level indicator, I personally like the single letter version better too, and would not care if all letters were just white since this is an area where color is not needed as each unique letter shape “R”, “V” ect.. is distinctive enough for the player to differentiate the experience levels. ALL are certain to agree they would like to have the return from Cmx1 of the floor/passenger for practical reasons, and this solves that.

In lieu of your comments I did some more brainstorming, and I think this is a winner to please all. You see the type stays white and the AMMO LEVEL INDICATOR is now small circles of red, green, and yellow. This solves the problem for color blind person, while helping those with poor vision like myself who do not want to keep squinting to read the integers especially when not necessary unless ammo is getting low which will tell the player at a glance by the showing of the color indicator.

The colored bars, and icons from CMSF were good in that they told the player the ammo sitrep at a GLANCE, which is especially important for RTS play, BUT this alone was too vague. OK, I am down to 1 red bar, well what does that mean? I’m low but do I have 5 rounds? 10 rounds? 0 rounds left? This is a good use of color red= bad, green = good, but does not give the more detailed story when necessary. So, integers were needed, BUT now we lost the color that gives the at a GLANCE. This gives it all, and once again we see CMx1 had it best, both color and text together to give the at a glance, and detail when needed. NOW WE HAVE IT ALL!

I still stick to my guns in saying it is an attractive, and overall well done GUI, but that does not say it cannot be improved with some practical features such as these for more tweaking. My only real criticism with the UI is the relative hotkey layout. It takes a less than optimal approach to RTS play in its current layout.

That looks perfect.

[womble]

@Jons, Look up and study complimentary colors (colors opposite each other on the color wheel and their use. They create max contrast compared to other color combos, and when mixed neutralize each other creating more natural gray tones. I have been a painter for over 20yrs., and have a BFA in fine art. I know my business, and studied at the right place. All that aside though the thread is about improving the GUI with the FLOOR/PASSENGER status and color ammo situation indicators from Cmx1.

www.vincentmonaco.com to see some of my paintings. Notice how i use complimentary colors to get the most pop.

Yellow on black is high contrast and vice versa are about the highest contrast colour contrast. Red on black is lower contrast. Red on white is higher contrast than red on black. Black on white is higher contrast than red on white.

Luminous colours (like the ones on your CRT/LCD) absolutely do not follow the same rules as passive, reflective colours do. Your fine art degree and expertise in painting, while admirable, aren't particularly relevant to display on computer screens. See the squawks on a forum with a dark background (navy or black, usually) when someone starts posting in green, red or magenta.

[Vinnart]

Yellow on black is high contrast and vice versa are about the highest contrast colour contrast. Red on black is lower contrast. Red on white is higher contrast than red on black. Black on white is higher contrast than red on white.

Luminous colours (like the ones on your CRT/LCD) absolutely do not follow the same rules as passive, reflective colours do. Your fine art degree and expertise in painting, while admirable, aren't particularly relevant to display on computer screens. See the squawks on a forum with a dark background (navy or black, usually) when someone starts posting in green, red or magenta.

@wombie, You are correct in some of your statements such as yellow on black being higher contrast than red on black. This because yellow is a lighter VALUE than red creating more contrast despite them both being primary colors. Blue the last in the primary triad would have the least contrast next to black compared to yellow, and red. This is because its value is darker than yellow, or red, and it is a cool color rather than warm.

You are incorrect in saying computer colors are any different than any other colors. The same color theory applies since they are both colors you are looking at, and are perceived by the brain the same way. In reference to the red/green it is no coincidence that those colors were chosen by the CM artist for their highest contrast effect color next to color in the game for important indicators. Red next to green is the highest complimentary combo contrast, which makes them stick out the most from each other grabbing the players attention which is what it is intended to do.

Please, the thread is not about arguing, and about teaching about color theory (although I am sure some have learned a few things, and found it interesting ), and with all due respect if one has not studied these things in more depth one has no frame of reference. The artist on the forum, and at BF knows what I am talking about. Color is part of our field. Lets keep it about tweaking the GUI in making it the best it can be, and not about color theory. Would you like to see in GUI what floor/passenger status, or would you rather have to move camera around when camera is an obscure angel to tell for sure?

Once again thanks for your original feedback, which resulted in the most refinement of the design.

[Dietrich]

If red contrasted well with black, military flashlights wouldn't have red filters for map-reading at night.

That said... Vin, I applaud your continuing efforts to help improve CMx2's UI. *salute*

[Vinnart]

Thanks, Dietrich. To me the creative buzz of designing CM is the same if not stronger than playing at times. It is hard to explain. Di Vinci and I would have had some conversations. I liken myself to that type of thinker. All I want to see is CM be the best it can be for all of us who are so passionate about this brilliant game that gives our tactical minds the fix it needs. If I can design something that is practical for the player I want to share it so we can all benefit in our playing experience. I base my designs, and concepts from experiences as an artist, military veteran, and veteran wargamer both RTS and wego HvH. The forum is great, and BF is smart in that they participate in keeping in touch with it. or at least discuss ideas presented amongst themselves. Our feedback matters to them in how they go through the development PROCESS to make the best game they can. Bf is welcome to use any concept I may present, and hope they at least take them into consideration.

I am pretty sure the red filter choice has to do with preserving night vision while offering a light of lower profile other than white light. That is getting into how the eye sees spectums of light which is a bit different. I still have my army flashlight, after 20 yrs and it still works.

[gnorffy]

omfg color palette grogs!!

The German Mk. VII Tactical Field Colour Circle ("Farbkreis für den Krieg") was superior to the allied models in every sense, even before one takes into account the fact that it had a rocket engine.

[Stingray]

Love your soldier status (CMSF) are you going to make one for CMBNQuestion: What do the symbols lile: ///// mean ?

Thanks

[Vinnart]

Glad you like it Stingray. I am trying to make one for CMBN, but for some reason it isn't taking my changes. Not sure why, and if anyone can crack into it first be my guest to use this concept to pass along to the rest of us. I just want to use it and don't care who makes it.

The symbols added to, or replacing words are:

/////// = moving

(------- = firing

\*^*/ = aiming

(???) = hiding

Casualty is changed to MAN DOWN and has a "cross" at the end of word. All credit to Vein for inclusion of this concept he first came up with.

Cowering is changed to OH SHT! -

Medic (+) (keeps word and adds symbol)

Deploying (D) . Keeps word and adds symbol to end

Packing up (P) . Keeps word and adds symbol to end

Commanders, leaders, team leaders are indented one space to give a more outlined structure to see seperation of teams more easily.

All other words stay the same as stock to make these most important actions stand out.

[Other Means]

I'd indent everyone BUT team leaders, so that it would show like a hierarchy.

TEAM LEADER

...Soldier

...Soldier

...Soldier

TEAM LEADER

...Soldier

...Soldier

...Soldier

(dots for HTML)

[Steiner14]

The symbols added to, or replacing words are:

/////// = moving

(------- = firing

\*^*/ = aiming

(???) = hiding

Casualty is changed to MAN DOWN and has a "cross" at the end of word.

Sounds nice, but why several letters?

How about

/ ...Moving

- ...Firing

^ ...Aiming

? ...Hiding

+ ...Casualty

After some time getting used to, that should give a good feeling about the squad's status, without looking at it directly.

Try it:

-

-

-

^

-

?

-

?

?

+

+

Also like the idea about the location info and a letter for the experience.