Mortar spotting

[Dark Knight]

Hi all,

I'm having trouble with something that I never could get to work even in the old engine: using mortar teams to fire on a target spotted by their HQ.

For instance, in the tutorial battle in the demo, say I have the HQ unit for a mortar team in the second floor of a building able to see into a field that the mortar team cannot, how do I go about getting the HQ unit to spot for the mortar team and allow them to fire at an unseen target? If I select the mortar team and try to target a location that the HQ team can see but they cannot, I get the standard "No line of sight" message and can't fire on it.

Can someone help me out with this gameplay mechanic please? It would make my defensive "Closing the Pocket" battle a lot easier

[DaddyO]

First, make sure your mortar team is close enough to the HQ. If not move it.

Second, order the mortar team to deploy the weapon.

Third, select the HQ team. It will show you at the top an icon of any mortar teams in communication with the HQ. Select the graphic of the mortar team (again, this is along the top of the detail for the HQ). It will walk you through a series of inputs for the fire mission. Once you confirm the orders, firing will commence after a reasonable delay.

[Krilly]

Hi all,

I'm having trouble with something that I never could get to work even in the old engine: using mortar teams to fire on a target spotted by their HQ.

For instance, in the tutorial battle in the demo, say I have the HQ unit for a mortar team in the second floor of a building able to see into a field that the mortar team cannot, how do I go about getting the HQ unit to spot for the mortar team and allow them to fire at an unseen target? If I select the mortar team and try to target a location that the HQ team can see but they cannot, I get the standard "No line of sight" message and can't fire on it.

Can someone help me out with this gameplay mechanic please? It would make my defensive "Closing the Pocket" battle a lot easier

Don't forget there is a PDF manual in the demo folder .

Anyways. Click the arty button (Cannon) when you have selected the HQ. It should pop up a little menu with all available arty you have. In this case THE 60mm team.

[DaddyO]

By the way, being new myself, I am not yet sure how to determine what "close enough" is except through trial and error. But I just did this successfully for the first time using the demo as a trial and error process.

[ichadwick]

Ah. Been trying to figure out why mortars wouldn't fire... probably have the HQ too far away. Thought it was just disabled for the demo.

[stikkypixie]

By the way, being new myself, I am not yet sure how to determine what "close enough" is except through trial and error. But I just did this successfully for the first time using the demo as a trial and error process.

It depends on what difficulty level you are playing. On lower difficulty level, having a LOS to the HQ is enough for visual C2. You can get Audio C2 is they're within shouting range (which should correspond to real life) and if they have radio's (which they don't) then range doesn't really matter.

[Faelwolf]

This is something I have had trouble with, too. I read the manual, but just haven't grasped the concept fully I guess.

I have a tank with LoS to a target, and the tank has a radio. My HQ unit is right next to my mortar team, yet when I bring up the window for the tank, all mortars show as "denied". Some tanks still are allowed to call in fire though, but they are not within LoS of a HQ or mortar unit, so far as I can tell.

Shouldn't any tank be able to radio in a fire request to the HQ unit sitting right next to my mortar team? I am sure it's just something I am not understanding, I hope osmeone can enlighten me.

[akd]

This is something I have had trouble with, too. I read the manual, but just haven't grasped the concept fully I guess.

I have a tank with LoS to a target, and the tank has a radio. My HQ unit is right next to my mortar team, yet when I bring up the window for the tank, all mortars show as "denied". Some tanks still are allowed to call in fire though, but they are not within LoS of a HQ or mortar unit, so far as I can tell.

Shouldn't any tank be able to radio in a fire request to the HQ unit sitting right next to my mortar team? I am sure it's just something I am not understanding, I hope osmeone can enlighten me.

Not sure if all tanks are qualified to call for fire, but I will check on this. Having a radio is not the only prerequisite to be able to call for indirect fire, otherwise every Private Joe in a jeep or halftrack would be able to act as an observer.

[MikeyD]

I'm frankly surprised people have been doing so well with remote spotting considering its relative complexity. Originally when remote on-map spotting was introduced the Beta guys were simply thrown in the deep end without instructions. We did quite a bit of splashing and floundering before finally getting into the swim of things.

[Faelwolf]

Maybe I should volunteer as a beta tester then, so far I have done a lot of splashing and floundering! heh

OK, it looks like the part I am missing is fully understanding the C2 aspect.

So the radio for most tanks perhaps is to receive instruction; maybe only a command tank, or one within range/LoS of a HQ unit can call in fire?

I can understand that you wouldn't want anyone with a radio sending conflicting orders to your mortar teams and fighting for priority of fire.

Shame I can't designate a tank or squad to act as a scouting FO, though maybe later I can put a FO in a jeep and use it that way........

I love the community for this game, I don't have to be afraid to ask a question or post a thought

[akd]

Maybe I should volunteer as a beta tester then, so far I have done a lot of splashing and floundering! heh

OK, it looks like the part I am missing is fully understanding the C2 aspect.

So the radio for most tanks perhaps is to receive instruction; maybe only a command tank, or one within range/LoS of a HQ unit can call in fire?

I can understand that you wouldn't want anyone with a radio sending conflicting orders to your mortar teams and fighting for priority of fire.

Okay, here's the deal: in a US tank platoon, the platoon leader ("platoon HQ," rank LT) and the Assistant Platoon Leader ("1st Tank," rank Staff Sergeant) can access artillery, but the other three tanks (regular Sergeants) cannot. This can be seen in the demo mission "The Road to Berlin."

However, if a tank is purchased as a "single vehicle" (this is an option in both quick battles and the editor) and attached directly to another unit, the rank of the tank commander is always corporal. These tanks cannot access artillery. This can be seen in the demo mission "Busting the Bocage."

Shame I can't designate a tank or squad to act as a scouting FO, though maybe later I can put a FO in a jeep and use it that way........

Forward observing is a specialized skill. It is not just a matter of having a radio. However, FOs always carry radios and are "purchased" in the editor or quick battles with their own vehicle.

I love the community for this game, I don't have to be afraid to ask a question or post a thought

I love it, too. That's why I try to answer.

[Faelwolf]

Ah, so in my case it is a C2 thing. I need to check my tanks ahead of time, to see if they have the command status to call in fire. Got it!

Thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated!

Now if I can just learn to apply it consistently......

[MikeyD]

If you're talking about a remote spotter calling on tanks to preform an indirect fire mission that's not setup in the game. None of the tracked artillery (Priest, M8 HMC, Stummel) is set up to recieve/perform indirect fire missions. The M4A1 and M21 mortar HTs have to offload and deploy in order to perform fire missions. But the deployed mortars can utilize the closeby HTs ammo and radio links.

[Dark Knight]

Oh my god, I can't believe this thread is already two pages long. I guess that's what a fresh release will do!

Thanks for the help everyone, I've got it now. When I was looking at the manual I didn't read quite far enough, haha.

[Michael Emrys]

None of the tracked artillery (Priest, M8 HMC, Stummel) is set up to recieve/perform indirect fire missions.

Hmmm. This seems distinctly odd. Was there a programming issue? The Priest, at least, regularly performed indirect fire.

Michael

[Peregrine]

This is so fiddly.

The following asssumes Elite mode. All units are in the same company.

Simple situation 1 - 2nd Plt Mortar Team plus 2nd Plt HQ.

The mortar must be deployed.

The mortar crew must have "Voice" or "Radio" C2 to the immediate superior. Voice C2 maxes out at around 45m or 6 tiles. I couldn't find a situation that broke this distance rule (ie multiple buildings did not hamper voice contact over this distance). Is 46m OK is it 44m tricky to tell exactly as I didn't muck about too much. Pretty generous in my opinion. Haven't tested this to see if in-game sound messes with this once the bullets start flying. I have no idea if visual contact as well may improve accuracy or speed. The artillery relationship icon stays green whether voice or voice/visual

In this situation if you select the 2nd Plt Mortar unit and click on the voice "icon" it will take you the HQ unit that can spot indirect fire for it.

NOTE - DO NOT think though that a mortar unit must have a "radio" or "voice" icon for somebody to be able to call in mortar support from that unit as below in not so simple situation 2.

Not so simple situation 2.

2nd Plt Mortar is deployed. It's immediate superior 2nd Plt HQ is close 70m but there is no radio contact and 70m is too far for voice but they can see each other. Therefore C2 is visual only and the C2 icons in the UI will show visual only. 2nd Plt HQ cannot call in indirect support from this mortar.

BUT if 3rd Plt HQ is within the six action tiles (Voice C2) that then 3rd Plt HQ will be able to call in mortar support. If you have selected the mortar team there is no visual cue in the UI to suggest this is available.

In the bigger more confused picture of HQ units of other formations I have no idea how it will hold up but in a nutshell:

- "Deploy" your mortar

- The HQ you want directing must be 40-45m (6 actions squares) away.

NOW to get a little more nuts, keep in mind this is all within the 1 Coy.

A Coy HQ has voice contact to 2nd Plt HQ which in turn has voice contact to 2nd Plt Mortar. BOTH A Coy HQ and 1 Plt HQ can call indirect support. Without radios 1 Coy HQ can therefore be max out at 90m distant from the mortar and call in support. No-one needs to be able to see anyone else. No testing done re time or accuracy but the link does exist.

A Coy HQ has voice contact to 3rd Plt HQ which in turn has voice contact to 2nd Plt Mortar.

3rd Plt HQ CAN call in support from 2nd Plt Mortar BUT A Coy HQ CANNOT.

Jarring yes, realistic, NFI. It seems odd that a 3rd Plt HQ can direct fire for 2nd Plt Mortar in the above situation but if A Coy HQ asks then it is denied.

Again this is all within the one Coy. Obviously to maximise mortar coverage deploying the Coy HQ in a spot with good visibility then fanning out the Plts from here should enable to decent coverage and keep the crews protected.

I seriously wouldn't be attempting or hoping units other than those in the immediate chain of command can help. Even if they can I suspect the delay plus inaccuracy will simple lead to a waste of a precious resource.

[akd]

Peregrine, read the thread. All is explained.

[Peregrine]

Prior to my thread there is no mention of the voice distance being approximately 45m.

There is also no illustration of daisy chaining a Mortar Plt to a Coy HQ via the intermediary Plt leader and the situation where alternate Plt leaders can direct a mortar but the Coy commander cannot.

The OP got a put the HQ unit closer response to gain voice "correct" but there are more possibilities than this for his situation.

[Battlefront.com]

Hmmm. This seems distinctly odd. Was there a programming issue? The Priest, at least, regularly performed indirect fire.

True, but in real life they would have to park, put up aiming stakes, orientate themselves to known reference points, and so forth. This would probably take longer than any player would wish to spend having the vehicle sit around, so we presume that if the vehicle is on the map it is there to drive around and therefore fire directly. Otherwise it can be represented by off-map 105mm.

In theory we could allow vehicles which never move to be allowed to do indirect fire. Someday we probably will. But this is a tricky thing to do from a UI standpoint and it requires more thought/testing than we have time for in the near future.

Steve

[akd]

Prior to my thread there is no mention of the voice distance being approximately 45m.

There is also no illustration of daisy chaining a Mortar Plt to a Coy HQ via the intermediary Plt leader and the situation where alternate Plt leaders can direct a mortar but the Coy commander cannot.

The OP got a put the HQ unit closer response to gain voice "correct" but there are more possibilities than this for his situation.

My fault Peregrine, I confused this thread with another one on the same subject. Here is my post from that thread:

The green lights and the red Xs in the far bottom left do not show the current command status of the selected unit other than to its immediate superior HQ. It is meant to show the status of the chain of command for the unit's formation. Here is the mortar team that starts out of contact in Closing the Pocket:

The lower left corner does not show that the selected team has no comms with the Platoon HQ and the Company HQ, but does have comms with the Battalion HQ. It shows that the selected team does not have comms with its Platoon HQ, that the Platoon HQ does not have comms with the Company HQ, but that the Company HQ has comms with Battalion HQ.

Also, three rules were added to the game that allow more flexibility in the use of subordinate units that are cutoff from C2 from their normal superior HQ (either because of separation from the HQ or destruction of the HQ). However, none of these affect display of the normal C2 chain shown in the lower left.

1. A unit that is cutoff from its own HQ but is physically near (voice/visual range) of another HQ can gain "in command" status, but this is for morale and relative spotting (sharing information on targets that they can see) purposes only. It does not alter the standard chain of command display in the lower left, nor plug an on-map indirect fire unit back into the radio net so it can receive indirect fire mission requests.

Example, I moved the Charlie Co. HQ right next to the mortar team that is out of contact with its platoon HQ. The mortar team now shows "in command" icons (visual and voice), but the breaks in the C2 chain have not been altered. The mortar team is still not in contact with the Platoon HQ and the Platoon HQ is still not in contact with the Company HQ.

2. Any HQ within visual/voice command range of an on-map indirect fire unit (mortar or infantry gun) can spot for this unit.

3. Any on-map indirect fire unit (mortar or infantry gun) that is physically adjacent to a vehicle with a radio can be accessed by spotters/HQs with radios for indirect fire missions.

Not saying this is not difficult to learn or couldn't be improved, but there is no bug here. Things are working properly and predictably based on the system outlined above.

And here is the link to that thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96575

My fault entirely. This is certainly the most complex part of the game and I'm not sure if all these changes made it into the manual.

[Lt Belenko]

There was a minimum range for mortars in CMx1 is this present in CMBN?

And mortars at night were practically useless. They could shot close and couldn't see far enough to find a target.

[Michael Emrys]

True, but in real life they would have to park, put up aiming stakes, orientate themselves to known reference points, and so forth. This would probably take longer than any player would wish to spend having the vehicle sit around, so we presume that if the vehicle is on the map it is there to drive around and therefore fire directly. Otherwise it can be represented by off-map 105mm.

In theory we could allow vehicles which never move to be allowed to do indirect fire.

That's what I had in mind but wasn't explicit about. I understand your position on this.

Michael

[akd]

There was a minimum range for mortars in CMx1 is this present in CMBN?

Yes, minimum range is shown on the "unit card." If you try to have a spotter order a mission under minimum range for the on-map mortar, your cursor will say "out of range." If you give the mortar a direct fire order on a spot within minimum range, they will just use small arms.

And mortars at night were practically useless. They could shot close and couldn't see far enough to find a target.

Target Reference Points (TRPs) are your friend at night.

[Peregrine]

My fault Peregrine, I confused this thread with another one on the same subject. Here is my post from that thread:

And here is the link to that thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96575

My fault entirely. This is certainly the most complex part of the game and I'm not sure if all these changes made it into the manual.

No problem. I was originally confused in the other thread that I felt if I selected a mortar unit and superiors two levels up were in contact (immediate superior not) I would have expected a Green in the C2 information for the HQ unit. But no, even if a mortar crew is within 5m of the Coy Commander the C2 stays red unless their immediate is also present to provide a link. But that said the Coy commander can use the mortars indirectly and you get the appropriate voice/eyeball icons at that range.

I skimmed it again and the manual does nothing really to help with this in relation to C2 for arty.

Mortars units obviously do need to be in some sort of voice communcation with a HQ for indirect fire. The confusion really arises in that if you select Mortar unit the C2 information presented DOES show the units C2 status in a direct chain starting with their immediate superior but DOES NOT necessarily provide any information about which units can call arty in from that specific unit. Unless I am missing something you have to browse around nearby HQs and test if the have a link to the unit.

And as per my examples in the longer post earlier even without radios A Coy commander 90m distant (completely on the other side of the village) can use a mortar team if that specific mortar team Plt HQ is in the middle providing a link. I haven't tested this from the German side at all but closing the gap has an even longer chain on the German side, Coy Cmd, XO, Weapons Plt, Mortar HQ, Mortar Unit. There could be 180m of guys yelling at each other if the XO can provide a link. If he can't it may still be 135m.

Also as per my longer post above I find it odd that a Plt HQ will link to a Coy Cmd allowing them to control their own mortar team but not other Plts Mortar in the same Coy even though they themselves can direct the other mortar.

The real trick to doing this is (A) understanding implicitly how this works and ( setting up appropriately.

The problem is the C2 informatiom presented when selecting a mortar unit doesn't necessarily help you figure out who can direct that mortar and also can be misleading as this is not what the UI is showing you.

A mortar unit that has visual only C2 (ie NO VOICE icon, NO RADIO icon) could well have a myriad of HQs around that could direct it but the C2 interface (again unless I am missing something) doesn't help you out. You need to start clicking HQs and opening the arty pane to see if they have access. Clunky. Else use the LOS tool to see if they are less than 45m.

Not a problem once you understand it but baffling at first. I suspect some players will go a long time and never use the C2 chain for mortaring to their full potential.

No idea if Battlefront has modelled deteriotion in time or accuracy. The UI shows "Green" which is the best all the situations I described above, even when daisy chaining.

And this is all one organic company.

LATE EDIT - the manual actually says 50m for voice. I was more interested in sorting out the links than nailing down the voice distance. This is could be 7 tilese rather than 6 I stated. That said I am sure 7 didn't work but this could be that my units in question were both at extreme tile edges which would go beyond 50m.

[Fetchez la Vache]

If you have 4 on-map mortars (al la Busting the Bocage), how can you tell which one you are calling up using a spotter? Besides just trying each one in turn? I don't see any identifying notes on the artillery tube "tabs".