gunnersman Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I want MASH units with cute nurses. Michael That's in the Korea module... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJJ Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 That's in the Korea module... Major Houlihan I'm shocked! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Is there anymore detail on this? I am pretty sure it was mentioned in "Death Traps" by Belton Cooper, but I can't confirm since someone "borrowed" my copy. I am not sure if the M12 encountered a Panther or King Tiger, but it definitely won the encounter. The German tank was part of KG Peiper near Stoumont on the northern shoulder of the Ardennes offensive. The author of "Death Traps" was a tank maintenance engineer with the US 1st Army during the war. He was a bit peeved at Patton for prioritizing the Sherman over the Pershing. Another M12 using direct fire to good effect against KG Peiper occurred at the village of La Gleize. The M12 pounded the village from a hill overlooking the town, with KG Peiper unable to stop the 155mm beating due to lack of fuel. Here is a picture of an M12 in direct firing mode in early 1945 in Luxembourg. Not sure what kind of target it is engaging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 "Death Traps": a good read, but needs to be filtered as a source/reference. Belton Cooper relates anecdotes, not verified facts. (Not saying it's falsified, but it needs to be looked at with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Similarly, "Band of Brothers" has been shown to be based on "war stories", with all that engenders, rather than researched and verified actions.) Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I have to admit to being slightly surprised that an M12 was allowed out by itself in the Ardennes. Rather vulnerable to all manner of enemy action, and travelling with a shell up the spout. I am not sure what practice was for large SP's but it does seem a dangerous practice. I will see if I can find anything about it. Also you would have thought that the Panther would have fired its MG's at the M12 crew immediately, especially given the turret mounted gun would be assumed to lay target first. I am not saying it could not happen it just seems unlikely. I would believe that an unmanned Panther/Tiger had its turret blown off to demonstrate how butch an M12 was : ) And also that some leg-pulling went on also. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 "Death Traps": a good read, but needs to be filtered as a source/reference. Belton Cooper relates anecdotes, not verified facts. (Not saying it's falsified, but it needs to be looked at with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Similarly, "Band of Brothers" has been shown to be based on "war stories", with all that engenders, rather than researched and verified actions.) Ken I don't have my copy of "Death Traps" anymore and I don't remember what backing detail Cooper provided for the M12 vs Panther/Tiger incident. However, it is verifiable that M12s were actively engaged against KG Peiper. For example, the previously mentioned M12 direct-firing on KG Peiper in La Gleize, a few miles away from Cooper's M12 vs Panther/Tiger incident. Furthermore, Belton Cooper was actually in the 3rd Armored Division which engaged KG Peiper. I would give him a bit more credibility than Steven Ambrose, author of "Band of Brothers", who never served in the war. Cooper does mention a number of other unusual engagements, including the nasty Paderborn slaughter, the "super" Pershing in action, etc., which are corroborated by other accounts. I particularly enjoyed his account of personally using a panzerschrect (panzer faust?) against a (dead) King Tiger and then examining the hole punched through the armor. The one thing I did disagree with Cooper on was the "Pershing versus Sherman" decision. Cooper was really down on Patton's decision to prioritize Sherman 76 production rather than introducing the Pershing earlier. I think going with the Sherman 76 and M36 was the right move. YMMV. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Also you would have thought that the Panther would have fired its MG's at the M12 crew immediately, especially given the turret mounted gun would be assumed to lay target first. I am not saying it could not happen it just seems unlikely. On another board, someone gave a more detailed description of Cooper's account and said it was a Tiger, not a Panther. Evidently, the Tiger's turret was slewed to one side and the M12 had a round in the breach, allowing the M12 to get in the first shot. Another interpretation might be that the Tiger was already abandoned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Well that does sound more probable. I was talking to a friend who was a gunner on a 5.5" field piece and he was bemused. He ran through the loading procedure and novice that I am I forgot the bags of cordite added and also standing clear when it fired as the shock effect was impressive.. It did make me wonder about other tall tales like Rudel. And the landmark airpower vs tanks where apparently 68 German ground-attack aircraft stopped a Russian advance in an hour and left 50 tanks burning. Totally bogus in that case. More vehicles.... Crocodile please. i have always considered that they would have been the bocage busting weapon of choice. The US can have the E4-5 ; ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Strange things can happen in wars. I just ran across a passing reference to M8 Howitzer Motor Carriages taking out a Tiger! I imagine if it happened at all it only happened once. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Where? All things are possible but the M8 \gun \carriage? The U.S. Army Armor School's paper The Battle at St-Vith 17–23 December 1944 describes an engagement during the Battle of the Bulge, between an M8 (Troop B, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron) and a Tiger I. The M8 crew was the victor, firing three 37 mm rounds into the rear armor of the Tiger from 25 yd (23 m), setting it on fire.[4 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Strange things can happen in wars. I just ran across a passing reference to M8 Howitzer Motor Carriages taking out a Tiger! I imagine if it happened at all it only happened once. Wasn't that an M8 GREYHOUND that did that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Tsk 4 minutes from looking sharp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 The US Army method of designating equipment can be very confusing for the uninitiate. The first model of anything can be called the M1...and so on down the line. So for instances, we have an M3 light tank (Stuart) and an M3 medium tank (Lee/Grant), neither of which resemble the other. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 It has always amazed me what a daft system it was. Thankfully at least naming them was adopted. : ) It leaves though a slight sense of dismay that an organisation could be so blind to the problems of everything being M1', 2, 3, 4 's. And what happens when they get to an M13 is it unlucky? I bet very few grogs here could say what a WW2 M13 was.!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Tsk 4 minutes from looking sharp LOL! When I started my post I paused to go check to see if I was remembering right! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 It has always amazed me what a daft system it was. Thankfully at least naming them was adopted. : ) It leaves though a slight sense of dismay that an organisation could be so blind to the problems of everything being M1', 2, 3, 4 's. And what happens when they get to an M13 is it unlucky? I bet very few grogs here could say what a WW2 M13 was.!! I agree! The bean counters and other bureaucrats in the American military have often seemed an unimaginative and heartless bunch! Whether it's the ridiculous way they provide designations or things like selling the aircraft carrier CV-6 Enterprise for scrap metal! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Every major German AFV is there so it's not like we need that many more vehicles. Personally the 1 AFV i'm really pining to see in BfN is the Jagdpanther. Which given how prolific it was i'm sure i'll probably see it in an expansion sooner or later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Jagdpather will definitely be in a future Module. It wasn't available for CM:BN's initial timeframe so it's not right for it. Same with two of my other personal favorites... the Hetzer and M-18 Hellcat. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Jagdpather will definitely be in a future Module. It wasn't available for CM:BN's initial timeframe so it's not right for it. Yeah it was. Not in big numbers though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The bean counters and other bureaucrats in the American military have often seemed an unimaginative and heartless bunch! ... things like selling the aircraft carrier CV-6 Enterprise for scrap metal! Swords into ploughshares. What else are you going to do with an obolete hull? The world only needs so many artificial reefs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I am wondering whether the communication's vehicles such as Sd.Kfz.232 that might be in this game might actually have functional communication capability within the game? This is something that Theater of War 2 Kursk did not have even though they had the vehicles. I'd love to see something like this be modeled within the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Swords into ploughshares. What else are you going to do with an obolete hull? The world only needs so many artificial reefs. I know they couldn't preserve everything, but a whole lot of people fought to keep it as a museum, as they did with some other ships, and the Enterprise fought through a lot of major battles and would have been one of, if not the most important ship to preserve. I think in its case, the value for history was greater than what they got out of it in scrap. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 LOL! When I started my post I paused to go check to see if I was remembering right! Wasn't there also an M8 combat car made from the hull of a Stuart? ISTR it from CMBO. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I know they couldn't preserve everything, but a whole lot of people fought to keep it as a museum, as they did with some other ships, and the Enterprise fought through a lot of major battles and would have been one of, if not the most important ship to preserve. I think in its case, the value for history was greater than what they got out of it in scrap. I agree. I think it fought in every important carrier battle except Coral Sea and was thus of unique historical significance. It was a strange oversight not to have preserved it as a museum piece. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Wasn't there also an M8 combat car made from the hull of a Stuart? ISTR it from CMBO. Michael Yes, the M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage based on the Stuart chassis with a "no barrel" 75mm howitzer as the main armament. A different vehicle than the M8 Armored Car - and BOTH will be in CMBN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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