Rifle Grenades: Who used them and when?

[Sequoia]

And if they fit in the Normandy timeframe how are they used in the game and if not how should they be modeled?

[DocMcJansen]

On this page you can see the TO&E of the game:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=276&Itemid=460

when you scroll down you can see that the german K98 Schiessbecher (Grenade Launcher for rifle grenades) is already implemented..also you can see the M1 Garand M7 rifle grenade launcher is also in the game..

so...it is already there

[gunnersman]

I've always wondered about a certain scene in "Band of Brothers". I forget the episode. It's towards the middle/end of the series. It occurs after Bastogne and after Foy. Both sides are at a short stalemate and dont want to cross the river because they both have warm places to stay and the war is slowing down (they believe). Captain Winters is ordered to send men across to capture prisoners. The men are picked who will do the job. They cross the river and quietly sneak up on the building which is housing German spotters for mortars. Before entering, one of the soldiers shoots a rifle grenade through the window (and then a frag grenade!). I could not believe my eyes.

WTF!?

Over.

Anyone?

Hollywood or true?

(Sorry if I'm too vague and short. I'm on lunch break and in a hurry.)

[Battlefront.com]

The Americans generally issued these to assistant leaders and sometimes specifically to heavy weapons teams to give them a little added chance of defense.

The Germans were more stingy with theirs. In theory every Platoon had one issued. In reality it could vary from more than one to none. The game code allows us to have this sort of randomized variety.

Steve

[DocMcJansen]

Hmmm sounds more like fiction to me, but I don't know...I know this particular scene well (one of the american soldiers gets wounded cause he runs into the building too early and gets hit by the mentioned frag)...

all I know is, that the special ammunition you use to fire the grenade had such a kick (recoil) that most soldiers would put the rifle butt against the ground instead of pushing it against the shoulder...

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:M1_Garand_rifgren-shooting_line.jpg&filetimestamp=20080411113511

and I don't think if the rifle grenade wouldn't went of if it hits the glas of the window..

[YankeeDog]

H

all I know is, that the special ammunition you use to fire the grenade had such a kick (recoil) that most soldiers would put the rifle butt against the ground instead of pushing it against the shoulder...

At least in the case of American rifle grenades, not necessarily. The "special ammunition" for the rifle grenade was basically just a blank cartridge. The amount of power the cartridge imparted to the rifle grenade was determined by how far onto the barrel adapter the soldier pushed the grenade -- pushing the grenade only one notch onto the barrel created a low-velocity, short-range shot. All the way down meant a higher velocity, long-range shot.

Basically, it was a clever way of effectively giving the rifle grenade multiple charge settings, like a mortar, without having to carry around blank cartridges of varying loads.

With the lower velocity shots, perceived recoil was much less, and it was quite possible to shoot the grenade from the shoulder. For the higher velocity settings, the weapon did have to be braced on the ground.

A while back, someone posted a good Youtube demo of a WWII re-enactor demoing all of this (including video of both shoulder shots and ground-braced shots) with a real Garand and practice grenade. I'm sure a search will turn it up.

Cheers,

Nick

[YankeeDog]

In regards to how Americans used them, I have read several accounts of platoons that chose to concentrate all of their rifle grenades in a "grenadier team", composed of a grenadier who carried two rifles (one with a grenade adapter attached, and one without), and an ammo bearer who carried around a bunch of rifle grenades in a satchel. Effectively, this gave the platoon a sort improvised version of the Brit 50mm mortar team.

No idea how common this ad hoc organization was, though.

As for the rifle grenade through the window thing, I have read real-world accounts of this. Apparently, the grenades came in very handy in the urban fighting in Aachen and other similar areas -- they were pretty accurate at short range and it was relatively easy to shoot them through windows at ranges and situations where this was difficult to do with a hand-thrown grenade. This doesn't necessarily mean that it was easy to just pop one through a window on the first attempt like you see in the movies, though.

Cheers,

YD

[DocMcJansen]

@ YankeeDog Didn't know that..thanks for the insight!

[akd]

There were two forms of US frag rifle grenades, one a dedicated frag with an impact fuze and the other an adapter for the standard MkII hand grenade. The adapter would initiate the time fuze on launch.

Also, once the game is released, don't be the guy to report the grenade launcher-equipped Garands cycling manually like a bolt rifle as a bug.

[SNAFU]

I've always wondered about a certain scene in "Band of Brothers". I forget the episode. It's towards the middle/end of the series. It occurs after Bastogne and after Foy. Both sides are at a short stalemate and dont want to cross the river because they both have warm places to stay and the war is slowing down (they believe). Captain Winters is ordered to send men across to capture prisoners. The men are picked who will do the job. They cross the river and quietly sneak up on the building which is housing German spotters for mortars. Before entering, one of the soldiers shoots a rifle grenade through the window (and then a frag grenade!). I could not believe my eyes.

WTF!?

Over.

Anyone?

Hollywood or true?

(Sorry if I'm too vague and short. I'm on lunch break and in a hurry.)

I just finished reading Dick Winters' book "Beyond band of Brothers".

Regarding the very action you mention: Page 198 "To accomplish the mission the patrol had to reach a point close enough to the outpost to lob rifle grenade in the cellar window. (...) The patrol would then then charge to throw additional hand grenades in the cellar window."

So not only is the portrayal of that event actual (except it wasn't a cellar in the mini-series) it was planned that way before the patrol crossed the river. The Rifle grenade blows out the window and stuns the troops inside which make it easier (and safer) for others to toss grenades in the same--now blown out--window.

Cheers!

[MikeyD]

America abandoned the rifle grenade long ago but not Europe. There may be a couple lurkers around here who during their time of service lobbed a few Mecar "bullet trap" rifle grenade on the practice range.

[Secondbrooks]

Intersting topic, we have those Belgian made. Had already at my service time 10 years ago. Large fuss was made that we now have rifle grenade option for our new rifles.

Well, as far as i can tell no-one except for some staff memebers have shot them. I dont' think many have even seen live or practice model of one, i haven't heard that anyone would have been trained to use rifle grenade in their rifle. Soldier's guidebook which descrpibes all basic operations of Jaeger squad's weaponry doesn't mention rifle grenades but by few words (to explain what for their is valve in gas port of rifle). There is no picture or anything about it! So rifle grenades in our army seemed to be lots of fuss about nothing... :cool:

Dunno was recoil similar to those French rifle grenades (Mecar were they?) or were those deemed to be otherwise too dangerous for peace time training. It comical as at later time they have bought HK's grenade pistols to do same stuff which rifle grenades were thought to be used for, those are being used in training all the time by troops having them. So i guess that in practice rifle grenades didn't work out as well as in theory I wonder how much that option cost for our already too expensive rifles.

[Magpie_Oz]

I remember we had an adapter for our standard M26 grenades that would go on the end of an L1A1 SLR.

The idea was you would load up with a magazine of ballestite cartridges, put a grenade in the holder, pull the pin (!), then fire the thing off. As it flew the carrier would fall away and allow the lever to fly off thus priming the grenade.

Eventually it was decided that bollocking about with a live grenade held on with a flimsy bit of disposable tin and having to carry a special magazine of cartridges was far to dangerous and fiddly as compared to the M79 Grenade launcher.

Placing the rifle butt on the ground was not so much about the recoil but more because of the low velocity of the grenade requiring a high trajectory, it was easier to put the butt on the ground. Some grenade adapters had an integral sight for the ballistics of the grenade.

[jhmorneau]

When I did my military service in a French infantry regiment, back in 1995, I once practiced firing grenades (both antipersonel and antitank) with the FAMAS rifle. One had to use a special cartridge for that.

I remember that AT were fired from the shoulder (with a heavy recoil) and AP with the butt of the rifle resting on the ground, like a mortar.

Here is a video of a nice (AT) fumble :-)

AFAIK ordinary conscript soldiers did not train with rifle grenades. I had the "privilege" to do so because I volunteered to serve in the IFOR headquarters in Mostar (ex-Yugoslavia).

I guess that enlisted soldiers receive proper training with those weapons but I'm not sure. Maybe another French lurker could confirm or infirm ?

And now something completely different and absolutely off topic :

(well, let's say they are flying over Normandy ;-)

[Broadsword56]

An interesting and educational US WWII training film for infantry soldiers about all their weapons includes the rifle grenade and shows it in use:

[Michael Emrys]

Here is a video of a nice (AT) fumble :-)

Man, you weren't kidding about the heavy recoil. I bet that soldier carried a bruise for the rest of the month.

Michael

[Glukx Ouglouk]

When I did my military service in a French infantry regiment, back in 1995, I once practiced firing grenades (both antipersonel and antitank) with the FAMAS rifle. One had to use a special cartridge for that.

I remember that AT were fired from the shoulder (with a heavy recoil) and AP with the butt of the rifle resting on the ground, like a mortar.

Here is a video of a nice (AT) fumble :-)

AFAIK ordinary conscript soldiers did not train with rifle grenades. I had the "privilege" to do so because I volunteered to serve in the IFOR headquarters in Mostar (ex-Yugoslavia).

I guess that enlisted soldiers receive proper training with those weapons but I'm not sure. Maybe another French lurker could confirm or infirm ?)

What I can confirm is that they now use grenades with a bullet trap, so they at least don't have to use blank cartridges (though I think the training rounds still have to be fired with blanks). As for training - from what I understand, rifle grenades are supposed to be actually used in combat in Afghanistan (since 40 mm grenade launchers normally aren't used on the FAMAS, and the LGI is closer to a light "commando" mortar than to a grenade launcher) - so they certainly train with them. My understanding is that French soldiers tend to like the higher lethality of rifle grenades (an APAV F2 weighs more than 430 g, while a 40 mm HEDP weighs something like 230 g... including the propulsive charge!) and the ability to fire them very quickly in reactive fire (if they're already loaded, that is), but OTOH they do have a shorter range than a 40 mm fired from something like a M203.

What I'm not to sure of is what will happen in the future : most modern rifles can only be fitted for lighter rifle grenades (like the MECARs ones, 300 g max I think - anyway, not the APAVs already in service in France), and the FAMAS is supposedly getting long in the tooth (mostly because of the ammo issues, since 5.56 ammo production has ceased in France, and the FAMAS was supposed to only use the French made, lacquered, steel cased F1 ammo with any decent reliability... there are some foreign-bought, brass cased, cartridges which are qualified for training use at least, but they aren't supposed to be used in combat AFAIK). There's been some talk about that issue when the Armée de l'Air (Air Force) bought some HK416, but that doesn't necessarily mean much for the Armée de Terre (Army), since the number of rifles (and costs) involved are nowhere near the same... And OTOH, the FELIN kit has always been demonstrated with the FAMAS so far (except for export purposes), so it's not clear whether there's any plan to replace the FAMAS in the near future... Anyway, when the FAMAS is finally replaced, there will be some tough choices to make there.