Red Force firing RPGs indoors = Unrealistic?

[Armchair_Ranger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wont firing any rocket launcher indoors cause everyone in the room including the firier certain death?

[sawomi]

You can fire them all from enclosed spaces in CMSF. In real you could do this only with some like PzF-3. Something to improve for CMSF 2.

[Armchair_Ranger]

Is it poissible to fire a javelin from indoors then in CMSF? Or is that one thing the game kept "realistic"?

[LongLeftFlank]

I think it depends on both the weapon and the size of the room you're firing from, and whether there's anything in the backblast zone that will either catch fire or diffuse the heat so that the shooter and others are harmed. But it isn't necessarily "lethal" per se.

[Sergei]

You can fire an RPG-7 from indoors. It uses a two-stage rocket engine, where a booster section launches the grenade and then the sustained motor kicks in. However, with any recoilless weapons you have to know its specific parameters:

a) how many qubic meters of room do you need, minimum;

how far must any obstacles behind you be, minimum.

Point A also can vary depending on ventilation. If the room has large windows for the pressure to escape, it can be smaller, while an unventilated bunker would have to be huge for the firer to survive. Also if there is no rear wall to the room, it is almost as good as firing outside.

Point B also applies to firing outdoors. Eg. firing in front of a building, with the exterior wall just couple of meters behind your back, will kill you. The same in a forest with a tree right behind you. Anything that can deflect the back flame and air pressure.

Yes, if the room has enough cubic meters of room, or has no back wall, it can be done safely. Depends on weapon. RPG-7, while not a soft launch weapon, uses a two-stage rocket motor, so it's not as bad as if there was only a big-ass booster engine.

[Pešadija]

But as a general rule of thumb, anything with a strong backblast would gravely injure if not kill all the people in a room of the average CM:SF size

[Golani]

Is it poissible to fire a javelin from indoors then in CMSF? Or is that one thing the game kept "realistic"?

I never fired a Javelin but IIRC it has a "soft lunch" i.e it can be fired from inside a room with no problem (same for the SMAW)

[Thomm]

Just found a RPG simulation video and decided to use this thread as a container:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNFK3qH4na4&feature=player_embedded#at=378

Best regards,

Thomm

[ZPB II]

Soft lunch.

Some points to add to the discussion, the CMx2 engine tracks damage dealt to buildings but doesn't show it graphically, which is why you can see guys shooting through a wall, since the game might consider an autocannon having popped nice holes there. I assume the typical squads you see to be trained adequately as in they know the proper drill. Remember to cover those ears.

Some rockets and missiles can be fired from buildings, some can't. I don't know if there's a compiled list somewhere out there.

I play real-time exclusively so I don't get to analyze minutiae but I could almost swear you occasionally see RPG-related mishaps as the cause of friendly casualties or suppression. Speaking of which, here's a video from, apparently, the Iraq-Iran war that shows improper firing discipline result in the serious injury or death from backblast. It's not graphic, just morbid.

[Boche]

Yeah when I was playing a red v red mission I had a cassualty which seemed to be from an RPG, te guy was standing behind him.

PS: what is the chance that that backblast killed or injured him?

[stikkypixie]

I personally think it is very unlikely that backblast can cause casualties in the game, as it would require quite a lot of effort to program the TacAI.

[Wengart]

It can't.

10char

[ZPB II]

Wasn't referring to backblast specifically, but RPGs hitting walls or trees and whatnot, showering friendlies with shrapnel.

[dima]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wont firing any rocket launcher indoors cause everyone in the room including the firier certain death?

According to russian solders who fired RPG's from within buildings - it wasn't fun but certainly was doable. The main thing, they said, is to yell to the teammates to warn them.

Also in Grozny during first chechen war russians lost a lot of tanks due to chechens firing RPG's (what else) from upper levels of multi-story buildings. Which again proves that it is quite doable.

[DMS]

One person (former Quake 3 player), who was in Chehnya told that he had seen how chehen fighter had made a "rocket jump" from the window with his RPG-7 launcher . (There was a wall closely behind him)

[Magpie_Oz]

I can't comment on the RPG-7 specifically but I do know the M72 which is similar in terms of the back blast. The Danger Area for each is at least 15m behind the weapon. I guess this distance does contain a fair margin of safety so if you were in a big room with all the doors and windows open you could conceivably fire the weapon. I doubt you would be able to hear too much for sometime after as the concussion of the back blast would be deafening.

The Javelin cannot be fired indoors. It has a much larger warhead and therefore much larger back blast. The "soft lunch" of the Javelin refers, not to a soggy Ham and Cheese, but to a short duration rocket motor that shoots the round out of the tube but then cuts out so it does not fry the gunner. This rocket still produces a considerable back blast. The flight motor cuts in once it is safely away. The Javelin also launches at quite a steep angle and then climbs rapidly to 200m or so. I would think that you would need to be very close to, if not hanging out of, the window to fire the weapon and not hit the roof or eaves. Not the best spot to be if you are trying to hide.

As for the SMAW no way it can be fired from indoors :

" At 152.3 decibels,the weapon is one of the loudest on the battlefield...... " Not good to be inside with this noise level, louder than a grenade which can kill by concussion alone.

"The backblast extends in a 90-meter, 60° cone to the rear of the weapon. The backblast is lethal out to 30 metres (98 ft), and still extremely dangerous to 90 metres (300 ft). The resultant shock wave can even cause sympathetic detonation of unsecured ammunition. "

So maybe you can fire from a multi storey parking station but from an apartment building ????

There is however a program to produce a confined space round for the SMAW, expected in service date is 2012

It is only the confined space version of the M136/AT-4 (the M72 replacement) that can be fired from inside a building. It has a saltwater counter mass that reduces the BBDA. I do not know if the game version is the CS version but it is becoming the more commonly issued varient.

[Blackladder]

The Javelin cannot be fired indoors. It has a much larger warhead and therefore much larger back blast. The "soft lunch" of the Javelin refers, not to a soggy Ham and Cheese, but to a short duration rocket motor that shoots the round out of the tube but then cuts out so it does not fry the gunner. This rocket still produces a considerable back blast. The flight motor cuts in once it is safely away. The Javelin also launches at quite a steep angle and then climbs rapidly to 200m or so. I would think that you would need to be very close to, if not hanging out of, the window to fire the weapon and not hit the roof or eaves. Not the best spot to be if you are trying to hide.

I'll have to quote the US Army Field Manual 3-22.37, Chapter 4, Section 4.13

c. Backblast. The soft launch capability enables the gunner to fire from inside buildings because there is little overpressure or flying debris. Anyone in the enclosure should wear a helmet, protective vest, ballistic eye protection, and hearing protection.

While it's true that the Javelin is propelled outside the tube by a rocket motor, and as such is dangerous to stand directly behind it, it does not generate sufficient pressure to be a threat to the user. The one serious limitation is that it has to be fired while positioned on a window or similar to allow enough clearance for the missile to take off without impacting into any obstacles.

You have to keep in mind that an RPG-7, M72 and other recoiless rifles/rocket launchers utilize almost all the fuel at the start to propel the rocket at the maximum speed, while the launch motor of the Javelin generates only the thrust necessary for the missile to be expelled of the tube and clear the gunner, and as such it might have a bigger warhead, but the backblast is much reduced.

After all, if it had a large backblast, it would also have a large launch signature, wouldn't it?

[Magpie_Oz]

" .... it does not generate sufficient pressure to be a threat to the user."

Unless of course you are NOT wearing Helmet, vest, Eye protection and ear muffs.

It's a bit like saying you can fire an RPG-7 indoors providing you are not standing behind it and are wearing a bomb disposal suit.

I guess you could fire it in a pinch and have a better chance of nil harm than the earlier weapons and of course you can fire it from a prepared enclosed position that has been designed with the limitations of the unit in mind but I think the point is it is still a long way from a "use anywhere" weapon that a game rule allowing indoor firing would indicate.

[Blackladder]

Unless of course you are NOT wearing Helmet, vest, Eye protection and ear muffs.

It's a bit like saying you can fire an RPG-7 indoors providing you are not standing behind it and are wearing a bomb disposal suit.

No, not really.

Following what happened in the battle of Mogadishu, US soldiers are required to carry their combat equipment whenever on a mission, even if they don't want to. And that protective gear is part of the standard equipment issued (except, maybe, the ear muffs? Not sure about those, though earplugs are very common).

I guess you could fire it in a pinch and have a better chance of nil harm than the earlier weapons and of course you can fire it from a prepared enclosed position that has been designed with the limitations of the unit in mind but I think the point is it is still a long way from a "use anywhere" weapon that a game rule allowing indoor firing would indicate.

With that I agree with you, since even though it is designed to have minimal backblast, it still does. And as a weapon, is not that effective in urban environment, since it has a rather long (for urban warfare) prep time, making it very hard to engage targets of opportunity.

But of all the weapons avaiable, it's probably the only one you can fire in an emergency from a room that's smaller than the minimum required safe size (12x15 feet with a door, by the way) without killing yourself.

[zhengwei0]

There is SO much programming talent in East Europe and Russia. You guys are astounding.

Have you fellows ever thought about reviving the Combat Missions project that would revive the CM1 series?

All we've ever wanted was a system to create an operational/strategic "shell" for the tactical CM1 games that would act as a scenario generator.

Sadly, the original developers got waaaay over their heads in attempting to produce a standalone operational game with its own AI etc - it was a much too ambitious effort and collapsed under its own weight.tuytu