LOS - How to determine?

[Major SNAFU]

Hi all,

I have just installed the demo and place my order for CMSF. I am a long-time CM player and I admit that I have just jumped in and haven't read through all of the manual yet.

But the one thing that I was immediately struck by is the fact that I can't find a LOS tool (yet) in CMSF.

I was hoping someone would kindly give me a leg up on how one determine LOS for a particular unit.

I have played through two of the demo scenarios so far and I love it (although I am anxiously waiting for the Normandy release).

Thanks,

SNAFU

[abneo3sierra]

There may be an easier way to do it, if so, I am sure more will post here, but what I do is choose "target" and then see where your unit can target. The line is blue for unobstructed LOS, and changes color at the first location that blocks it, so, if it is important for my unit to cover, say, an approach along a road, I will stop him, choose target, aim along the area I want him to cover,and if it is not blue, then I look for where it first changes color, and move there, and repeat.

Also, it is possible for you to zoom down to your unit,lower the camera to his level, then see what YOU can see, and that should be about correct, also.

[LongLeftFlank]

The Target tool *is* the LOS tool for CMSF / CMBN, but for infantry, just because it denies your unit a LOS doesn't mean that some of the men in a unit can't / won't see and shoot at the target (and be shot at in return)

[Erik Springelkamp]

I consider it a slight bug that when you check a LOS - or set a covered arc - from a waypoint, the distance is still shown from the starting location.

This makes it hard to put a - for example - 100 metre covered arc on your waypoint, or check if you are staying outside a 'safe' distance from a certain point.

[abneo3sierra]

I consider it a slight bug that when you check a LOS - or set a covered arc - from a waypoint, the distance is still shown from the starting location.

This makes it hard to put a - for example - 100 metre covered arc on your waypoint, or check if you are staying outside a 'safe' distance from a certain point.

I have not noticed this, but usually I will stop the unit,then set the target arc while stopped,so if I set 100m, it stays on 100m, once he moves, it still is 100m from wherever he is at that point, meaning, it does move with him.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I have not noticed this, but usually I will stop the unit,then set the target arc while stopped,so if I set 100m, it stays on 100m, once he moves, it still is 100m from wherever he is at that point, meaning, it does move with him.

That sounds like Real Time, I play WEGO, and sometimes I want to change the stance during the move.

It is probably connected to the other little bug that the target line also originates from the starting location, instead of from the waypoint, which makes it hard to determine what is blocking sight to some spot.

[abneo3sierra]

Ah, yeah, RT.. So I guess that with WEGO, you only can change every minute...not sure I could deal with that lol.

[Erwin]

abneo and Major Snafu. You can change the covered arc AND check LOS (using the TARGET command) at EVERY WAYPOINT you make. When you want to move to a certain position in order to get a desired LOS you can place many waypoints (and check LOS from each one before committing).

This is what makes WEGO quite a lot more challenging compared to RT. However, many of us enjoy the discipline of giving orders that make sense and take into account contingencies since they have to be carried out for a full minute before changes.

[Major SNAFU]

Hi Erwin.

So far I am only playing WEGO (Veteran) as this is what I am used to from CM1.

Hhwever, I have having some problems in moving/editing/interacting with waypoints for far. I have been reading through the manual - but I haven't reached this point.

The ability to check LOS at each way point sound really cool.

[Erwin]

Well, if you have specific game problems/questions...

In CM1, you could change the movement type at every waypoint, but that was about it. In CM2, at every waypoint you can not only change the movement type, but you can also issue all sorts of orders like "TARGET" a location for "x" seconds, then MOVE to Waypoint 2 and use a covered arc to swivel the turret in a particular direction, wait "y" seconds then HUNT to Waypoint 3 (searching for enemies in the covered arc) and discharge SMOKE at Waypoint 3, wait "z" seconds and FAST MOVE to Waypoint 4 and TARGET something, and so on...

[c3k]

Each "target" order, under the "T" tab, can be assigned to each movement order. So, you can start the unit with a covered arc (a target-type order), QUICK it to point A, pause for 5 seconds, LIGHT TARGET into a building, ASSAULT to point B, in the building, FACE (a target-type order) through the rear, pause for 20 seconds, FAST out the back door to point C, with a covered arc up the street, then finish up at point D with a TARGET at, say, a trench.

The orders system is amazingly flexible. The one BIG drawback is that you cannot _reposition_ an already set waypoint. It must be deleted. If it's the second waypoint in a series of 20, well, 19 deletes get you back to where you wanted to change.

The movemnent orders associated with each waypoint can be changed, as can the target order associated with each waypoint. (You do NOT need to force a target order for each point. The last target order carries over.) The TacAI does a very good job for most movement actions, including reaction to incoming fire or spotted targets.

This game is very detailed.

Enjoy!

KEn

[Major SNAFU]

Each "target" order, under the "T" tab, can be assigned to each movement order. So, you can start the unit with a covered arc (a target-type order), QUICK it to point A, pause for 5 seconds, LIGHT TARGET into a building, ASSAULT to point B, in the building, FACE (a target-type order) through the rear, pause for 20 seconds, FAST out the back door to point C, with a covered arc up the street, then finish up at point D with a TARGET at, say, a trench.

The orders system is amazingly flexible. The one BIG drawback is that you cannot _reposition_ an already set waypoint. It must be deleted. If it's the second waypoint in a series of 20, well, 19 deletes get you back to where you wanted to change.

The movemnent orders associated with each waypoint can be changed, as can the target order associated with each waypoint. (You do NOT need to force a target order for each point. The last target order carries over.) The TacAI does a very good job for most movement actions, including reaction to incoming fire or spotted targets.

This game is very detailed.

Enjoy!

KEn

Hi and thanks!.

I am surprised that you cannot edit the WPs. That was available in CM1. Ah well.

Is there the same delay in commands like in CM1? I.e. if you have a Move, then the unit stop and then resume the move there is a delay. If you set the Moves up so that they overlap between minutes, then you don't have the command delay penalty?

The other thing I am noticing so far is that it doesn't seem like I can specify movement to the same degree and precision as in CM1. This is not necessarily a problem, except I have noticed a few times where units, when given a choice as to go out the "front" door (i.e. where the enemy is) or the back door to get to the next waypoint, they choose the front door.

I haven't played enough yet to have an opinion on how the entire unit (like infantry) moves. I find myself wishing I could give movement to individuals - but this just means I have some "CM-unlearning" to do.

[Lt. Smash]

Major, infantry will pause at waypoints. Vehicles will not. This is described in the manual on page 63. Also, in that same section, it describes that units will not always follow the straight-line path between waypoints. Instead, the units will use the terrain and move independently between waypoints. Lastly, when moving infantry squads (especially the marines with three teams), only one part of the squad ends up where you place the waypoint. When in the throws of battle, I find it best to split the squads if I want them to move and/or end up in specific places.

Bob

[Erwin]

"The other thing I am noticing so far is that it doesn't seem like I can specify movement to the same degree and precision as in CM1. This is not necessarily a problem, except I have noticed a few times where units, when given a choice as to go out the "front" door (i.e. where the enemy is) or the back door to get to the next waypoint, they choose the front door."

Not sure I can agree with that. CM2 waypoints are MUCH more "powerful" and flexible. In the example you gave, it's wise to put a waypoint outside the door you want the men to exit.

The ONLY thing "worse" than CM1 waypoints is that you can't move the waypoints after they are set. However, since there is NO delay no matter how many waypoints you place, the worst case scenario is that you have to delete and replace waypoints as desired.

You can "edit" existing waypoints in terms of movement and what actions you want performed at each waypoint at any time.

[Erik Springelkamp]

However, since there is NO delay no matter how many waypoints you place, the worst case scenario is that you have to delete and replace waypoints as desired.

A waypoint does introduce a little bit of delay, because at each waypoint the first men wait for the last to assemble, before going further to the next point.

[Major SNAFU]

Not sure I can agree with that. CM2 waypoints are MUCH more "powerful" and flexible. In the example you gave, it's wise to put a waypoint outside the door you want the men to exit.

The ONLY thing "worse" than CM1 waypoints is that you can't move the waypoints after they are set. However, since there is NO delay no matter how many waypoints you place, the worst case scenario is that you have to delete and replace waypoints as desired.

You can "edit" existing waypoints in terms of movement and what actions you want performed at each waypoint at any time.

Again, I have only a few scenarios under my belt at this point, so I could be missing things. But what I am noticing is that I often click in certain places, like a door, and the way point does not appear where I clicked on the map. But this is most likely because I am not used to some adjustments being made by the game that takes my click and then puts the way point as close to my click, but that makes best sense for the unit in question, as possible.

[gibsonm]

Yes the location is “action spot” driven which doesn’t necessarily equate to exactly where you click.

Often this is not an issue as “near enough can be good enough” but sometimes it can be bad (like instead of being in cover behind the building you are out in the alley beside the building or instead of being hull down behind the ridge you are sitting on top of it).

I’ve learned to check this (through bitter experience) and if its in the wrong spot, cancel the leg and draw another one perhaps using the action spot to the left of where you wanted - if the first attempt was to the right, etc.).

[King Jareth]

Just jumping in a sec. So you can set "wait X" at each waypoint then (for a move wait move type situation)?

but you can also issue all sorts of orders like "TARGET" a location for "x" seconds

I'm assuming that's a "target" and "wait" order?

Also I've had a problem unloading people from vehicles. I issued a "wait" order to the vehicle, thinking it'd give the infantry time to get out, and told the infantry to disembark but everyone waited then the APC drove off with the infantry still inside (WEGO). Was this a hiccup or am I issuing the wrong orders?

[hoolaman]

"The other thing I am noticing so far is that it doesn't seem like I can specify movement to the same degree and precision as in CM1. This is not necessarily a problem, except I have noticed a few times where units, when given a choice as to go out the "front" door (i.e. where the enemy is) or the back door to get to the next waypoint, they choose the front door."

Not sure I can agree with that. CM2 waypoints are MUCH more "powerful" and flexible. In the example you gave, it's wise to put a waypoint outside the door you want the men to exit.

Actually he's right, because infantry movement in CMSF is based on the 8x8m tile, the fine control you could get in CMx1 is not there anymore. I think the underlying game grid in CMx1 was 1x1 m. The tile based pathing in CMSF can make your men go places you don't want them to, especially for a novice player who is not familiar with how their orders will translate into movement.

HINT: Watch the highlighted squares as they show where your teams will end up. Also combine each move order with a FACE command. FACE is critical to the way men deploy against walls, ridges and corners of buildings

Of course infantry are no longer infinitely small points on a map either so I guess there are pluses and minuses.

[stikkypixie]

Actually he's right, because infantry movement in CMSF is based on the 8x8m tile, the fine control you could get in CMx1 is not there anymore. I think the underlying game grid in CMx1 was 1x1 m. The tile based pathing in CMSF can make your men go places you don't want them to, especially for a novice player who is not familiar with how their orders will translate into movement.

HINT: Watch the highlighted squares as they show where your teams will end up. Also combine each move order with a FACE command. FACE is critical to the way men deploy against walls, ridges and corners of buildings

Of course infantry are no longer infinitely small points on a map either so I guess there are pluses and minuses.

I always thought the underlying grid in CMx1 is 20x20m, and that there "fudges" as it were to model break of contact in certain cases.

[Erwin]

"I'm assuming that's a "target" and "wait" order?"

You can simply target and a vehicle will keep moving. Inf will target and move (although there is a short pause at every waypoint).

If you want a unit to stay in a position and fire b4 moving to the next waypoint you need to state how many seconds you want the unit to sit still and fire.

You can do all of the above at every waypoint.

[Major SNAFU]

Thanks for the input about the tile size, and the movement tips.

Quite frankly, I purchased CMSF+M as much as a trial run for Normandy as I did for playing in the modern era itself.

So all of this information is very useful and illuminating.

[Louie the Rat]

Thanks for the input about the tile size, and the movement tips.

Quite frankly, I purchased CMSF+M as much as a trial run for Normandy as I did for playing in the modern era itself.

I just bought it for the same reason, so I could get up to speed for Normandy. It had been a long time since I played CM I'm relearning everything. Coming back pretty fast though.

[abneo3sierra]

I always thought the underlying grid in CMx1 is 20x20m, and that there "fudges" as it were to model break of contact in certain cases.

This is correct, the CM1 model was much less precise..for example the tree you see in CM1 does not really mean your troops are hiding behind it, where if you see your troops in CM2 hide behind a tree,they really are.

[hoolaman]

I always thought the underlying grid in CMx1 is 20x20m, and that there "fudges" as it were to model break of contact in certain cases.

No the map tiles were 20x20, but the actually underlying simulation grid was 1x1 m or thereabouts.

Think how much sub-tile detail there was, like buildings, foxholes, LOS and LOF calculations and movement of squads and vehicles could all be done in much finer detail.