Find this a tad disturbing...

[kulik]

In this case I don't see any reason why we couldn't give RT players the option to have an enforced Pause as well as WeGoers. I personally don't see too much value in that, but I can see how it could be appealing to some.

Steve

For me, its a feature which could make all the difference.

I was a wegoer to my bare bones, but when CMSF got enjoyable i tried really hard to learn to play it realtime (i agree it isn't clickfest). And i succeeded, BUT while i could end with a decent score much of the enjoyment from the actual gameplay was gone (Specially on company level i couldn't play at all.) and i played it less and less to a point i play CMSF with my friends less than CM1 games.)

When i imagine, that i could issue orders like in wego and then get all the benefits of realtime...oh boy, its a great thought.

[moneymaxx]

In defense of replay, I always thought it was a cool gimmick of CMBO that allowed me to witness a local combat event from a first-person viewpoint or wherever as many times as I liked. It was truly a lot of fun. However, I never felt that it was very fair or realistic if you are honest about things. Yes, yes, I know... who cares about honest?! I'm here to have fun! MY WAY!! Right?

As you say replay is a lot of fun, so any way of playing that does not allow replay is a lot less fun.

And while WEGO with replay obviously gives you more situational awareness it does not really follow that this way of playing the game is "dishonest" or less realistic. Actually I'd argue the other way around. The better situational awareness playing WEGO does not at all balance the LACK of control you have for the following minute. In WEGO if your ambushed, attacked by artillery or your tank is about to move into the firing lane of an ATG that just has been spotted by another unit you are in trouble (of course more so if that happens at the beginning of the turn). In RT you just change your order on the fly or hit pause if things do not work out as planned (btw, giving less specific orders in RT is not something the game imposes on you since while paused you can give any order you like, there is just no need too since you can change them ant any time anyway).

[gibsonm]

The better situational awareness playing WEGO does not at all balance the LACK of control you have for the following minute. In WEGO if your ambushed, attacked by artillery or your tank is about to move into the firing lane of an ATG that just has been spotted by another unit you are in trouble (of course more so if that happens at the beginning of the turn). In RT you just change your order on the fly or hit pause if things do not work out as planned (btw, giving less specific orders in RT is not something the game imposes on you since while paused you can give any order you like, there is just no need too since you can change them ant any time anyway).

Agreed!

Refer post #78 above (sorry, but I'm not gonig to repeat it all here).

[moneymaxx]

Refer post #78 above (sorry, but I'm not gonig to repeat it all here).

Oops, and I thought I read the whole thread, comes with age I think .

[MeatEtr]

Not in CM:BN, planned on being added later. What is "later"? I don't know. I had hoped we would get it into CM:BN's initial release, but we had to cut it months ago due to other things taking way more time to do than expected.

Our basic philosophy is if something can be extended, without causing additional technical liabilities/headaches, then we are open to it provided there seems to be value in doing so. In this case I don't see any reason why we couldn't give RT players the option to have an enforced Pause as well as WeGoers. I personally don't see too much value in that, but I can see how it could be appealing to some.

Steve

Thanks for the info about this. Even though it's been cut from CMBN, can you explain more about the compromise system? The enforced pause for an option sounds good. Also a way for both players to agree to a pause(like timed turns from CMx1) would be great too. This feature is obviously great for when RL issues pop up(phone call, front door), since as it is now, there's no way to pause so it's basically gameover.

I'm guessing this will come up more often when CMBN ships as MP RT is great for quick smallish games. So the new QB system fits into this well.

[noxnoctum]

Auto-pause every 60 seconds with control DURING the 60 seconds would be THE solution for me. Superior to wego. Seeing as it's far less of a hassle to implement than wego tcp-ip apparently I def hope it gets in soon after release. Possibly adding different time options for the auto pauses would be a nice touch too.

WEGO with replay would still be nice though... it's always fun to watch over and over your tank blowing something up . But if the above is implemented I could easily wait 5+ years for it lol.

[Steiner14]

If there is ever enforced RT pause (I hope so!), than PLEASE make the length of a turn as well as max. length of a pause USER SELECTABLE. Thank You ;-)

It could be very comfortable, if forced PAUSE could be suspended earlier, if both sides confirm they want to continue.

[Doug Williams]

Exactly. Reminds me of the huge dust-up we had when we announced the first CMx2 game was going to be Modern and not WW2. We didn't ask diehard WW2 fans to purchase CM:SF, nor did we expect them too. We did expect Modern warfare fans, or "Modern curious", to purchase CM:SF because that is who we made the game for. The success or failure of CM:SF was all about them, not the WW2 guys. So when the WW2 guys told us they wouldn't buy CM:SF the simple answer back to them was... "we're not expecting you to".

Steve

And I never did. ;-)

But I sure am looking forward to CMBN. I'll be pre-ordering as soon as you open it up.

[Tactical Wargamer]

BTW, we have no plans to even attempt TCP/IP WeGo with playback. We would like to do it with playback, of course, so it is on our minds. But unlike TCP/IP WeGo without playback, it's not on a ToDo List.

Steve

A sad day for sure......

I do like Steve's compromise. Please enact this if you can sir !!

Any type of pause or variable speed for RT would I think be appreciated by the WEGO community.

I have been playing Charles's games since Flight Commander (1994) and enjoy many "RT" games.....But no matter how fast I am on the keyboard even with an in depth setup I cannot enjoy RT CMSF with anything beyond a platoon. I keep trying mind you

Looking forward to the Hybrid or RT. I think you could increase sales with all the WEGO'ers climbing on board.

[noxnoctum]

I think you could increase sales with all the WEGO'ers climbing on board.

Definitely. I'm certain the people who still play CMBB/CMAK exclusively won't purchase CM:BfN unless there's some kind of "wego-like" mode.

Nice sig btw. You trying to say something ?

[Battlefront.com]

The number of WeGoers that will not buy CM:BN specifically because it lacks WeGo TCP/IP could probably be counted on one hand. So adding it won't really offer much chance of increasing sales.

Now, if CM:BN was RealTime only, then you have a point. Sales would go up significantly by adding a WeGo option. Which is obviously why CMx2 has always, and will always, have WeGo

Steve

[noxnoctum]

Ya but PBEM sucks... playing games over months isn't exactly... fun.

Auto pause every 60 seconds in RT is the way to go.

And you're wrong about the people who won't buy it because it doesn't have tcp-ip wego. There's quite large communities that still only play CMBB because CMSF doesn't have tcp-ip wego. (sure some it's because it's not WW2, but many it's because there wasn't a proper QB system and no tcp-ip wego)

I was in that group initially, especially after the disastrous release (which I'll say you guys certainly cleaned up well with all the patches), but I've learned to enjoy singleplayer RT. I can just pause when I need to.

Multiplayer on the other hand, with anything other than a company is more like work than fun. Actually reminds me of this time I stayed up 30 hours straight writing a paper in college only to have it auto-deleted from the harddrive literally seconds before I was going to put it on my flashdisk (computers would erase everything every morning at 8 am). Yep, those were the days.

In modern combat you can get away with it, since all the BLUFOR tanks are one-shot one kill, and the IFVs too in a lot of cases. Not so with WW2 where we'll have to zoom in to check angles on vehicles and hull down positions and mess around with AT guns getting positioned correctly etc. etc. etc.

You said it yourself, RT with auto-pause would not be anywhere near as hard to implement as wego w/replay. So put the damn thing in at some point please!

Sure, you might make your sales goal regardless, but the reviews of the game will suffer for it and you WILL lose customers. If you have both straight RT, RT with auto-pause, and wego pbem everyone's happy (yes replay is fun to watch everything from different angles but it's not essential if RT with auto-pause is in)

[gibsonm]

Haven’t we been here before already?

[noxnoctum]

If we do not remember history we are doomed to repeat it.

[Michael Emrys]

Is that what happened???

Michael

[gibsonm]

If we do not remember history we are doomed to repeat it.

But in the same thread ....?

Shesh.

1. They aren’t going to do it for the foreseeable future.

2. You have a choice of;

a. Using traditional PBEM (with mail messages) - which you say sucks (great your choice don’t use it).

b. Using the PBEM format (but no email messages) with file sharing to achieve effectively EXACTLY (except you need to open a file from the share point) the same thing as TCP/IP WEGO.

If you don’t like 2.a. use 2.b.

If you don’t like both stick to CMX1.

I want TCP/IP WEGO too but constantly bleating about it over and over again is just pi**ing people off (both for and against your argument) - as you can no doubt detect from my tone.

[noxnoctum]

Ummm... I just said that RT with auto-pause would be totally fine and in some ways superior to wego w/replay... read my posts at least man.

Ya you're pissed off, you're a beta tester. You're not a typical customer. Usually the beta testers here get pissy quite quickly. I dunno if you guys get paid or not, but your blind fanatical loyalty to everythiiiiing BFC decides on is kinda... counter productive to being a beta tester. You're supposed to point out flaws, not wash over them. That's the entire point of beta testing.

Other gaming communities are not like this... and people would be getting booted off the beta team for this kind of behavior.

I dunno if you've ever played Red Orchestra, but check out their forums and see how different the responses are from the devs and the mappers (no beta testing publicly announced yet though it's doubtless going on---sequel I'm speaking of here)

And they were a tiny team originally too... 3 people. They made a niche game, listened to their fans (this was when it was still a mod for another game), and guess what, now they've sold 500,000 copies. And it wasn't by "selling out" or "dumbing down" the game either.

[gibsonm]

read my posts at least man.

Why, its just the same message over and over again across numerous threads?

But your right I don’t need to respond, so I’ll leave you to it.

[gibsonm]

Sorry one last response:

Usually the beta testers here get pissy quite quickly.

Yes because we raise the same issues, have discussion about it and move on. Then when Steve, et al adopt the same approach “out here” it doesn’t work so yes it gets frustrating.

I dunno if you guys get paid or not, but your blind fanatical loyalty to everythiiiiing BFC decides on is kinda... counter productive to being a beta tester.

No Beta Tester gets paid.

You're supposed to point out flaws, not wash over them.

And we do.

But there’s a point where if you want the product to come out you need to make compromises.

Otherwise you’d still be here until 2030 waiting for it.

And its not a global issue so its a classic case of the “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”.

Other gaming communities are not like this... and people would be getting booted off the beta team for this kind of behavior.

Well good luck to them.

I dunno if you've ever played Red Orchestra, but check out their forums and see how different the responses are from the devs and the mappers (no beta testing publicly announced yet though it's doubtless going on---sequel I'm speaking of here)

Nope because it a FPS.

I accept that and don’t buy it or play it.

I certainly wouldn’t go on there and complain endlessly about it not having a turn based option.

[PaulMG]

30 hours straight writing a paper in college only to have it auto-deleted from the harddrive literally seconds before I was going to put it on my flashdisk (computers would erase everything every morning at 8 am).

What happened at the first 8 am?

[Tactical Wargamer]

But in the same thread ....?

b. Using the PBEM format (but no email messages) with file sharing to achieve effectively EXACTLY (except you need to open a file from the share point) the same thing as TCP/IP WEGO.

Curious though Sir with method it is not like CMSF? Can I do simultaneous turns at the same time as my opponent? Or do I not have to wait in some cases 20-30 minutes to get the turn back to submit my orders. If not great then you are 100% correct it is almost as good as WEGO TCP/IP.

[gibsonm]

Curious though Sir with method it is not like CMSF? Can I do simultaneous turns at the same time as my opponent? Or do I not have to wait in some cases 20-30 minutes to get the turn back to submit my orders. If not great then you are 100% correct it is almost as good as WEGO TCP/IP.

Well it does require you to allow the other guy to plot some orders too.

Yes its not exactly the same because you both can’t plot orders concurrently and have them resolved at the same time.

But the same thing happens in TCP/IP WEGO if you only have a couple of orders to plot and hit “go” and then sit around waiting for the “other guy“.

Its certainly not perfect, but it works and you aren’t waiting hours / days for the “other guy” to read their mail and send you their response.

[noxnoctum]

Sorry one last response:

Yes because we raise the same issues, have discussion about it and move on. Then when Steve, et al adopt the same approach “out here” it doesn’t work so yes it gets frustrating.

No Beta Tester gets paid.

And we do.

But there’s a point where if you want the product to come out you need to make compromises.

Otherwise you’d still be here until 2030 waiting for it.

And its not a global issue so its a classic case of the “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”.

Well good luck to them.

Nope because it a FPS.

I accept that and don’t buy it or play it.

I certainly wouldn’t go on there and complain endlessly about it not having a turn based option.

Dammit READ MY POSTS! I'm saying PAUSE FOR REAL TIME REAL TIME REAL TIME!!!! NOT TURN BASED!

lol.

[panzermartin]

Yes, nobody is asking for a WEGO TCP/IP right now. We only ask for a pausable RT.

On the menu you go TCP/IP RealTime -> Pausable -> set Pause timer. That's how I imagine it.

We wont get replay but at least we'll have the time to study what's new on the map. We should be able to order units while action unfolds. 1:1 is not very WeGo friendly, we will have to constantly fine tune orders and placement of units. Also, there is lack of movable waypoints which is a minus.

As I said, I would really like to see a more complex pausing system, with time points etc but since this will require extensive testing, I will be happy with the compromise system.

There is so much potential in this game, that only a human vs human game can really highlight.

Unfortunately beta testers hardly have the time to play H2H it seems, so multiplayer is a bit low on the "improve" list.

[Lethaface]

Noxnoctum, I have to give Gibsonm credit where it is due, when I read your post I got the same idea as I got some pages ago.

Since I'm not a beta tester perhaps I can be objective here

I think the whole problem is twofold:

- Drooling fans ranting about missing features.

- Strongly attached Beta testers being too sensitive to rants and over-defend the creators of the game.

Your post started with:

- "Ya but PBEM sucks... playing games over months isn't exactly... fun."

From a social perspective, this is very unconstructive. If you want other people to positively react to your post, do not start a post like this For example, one might enjoy PBEM (i.e. not sucking) and even see the duration as a plus thing (because of limited time). I think I don't need to elaborate further here.

You could post your disliking over PBEM in a more sensible way, but, why even bother? Commenting negatively on a existing feature won't help your point about the hopefully coming soon feature. More constructive would be to tell what you want and leave it at that.

And don't forget GibsonM is a Major on Duty so forgive him for his seriousness I do think that sometimes beta-testers shouldn't feel the need to defend the game (thats not their task, it's BF.C's although also beta-testers are allowed to enjoy an opinion), however none of them ever 'assaulted' me. I guess it takes two to tango (ranting drooler & capo tester). Normally I can't be bothered by reacting on these dead horses. This whole discussion has became a little pointless imo. Steve already said that he didn't see a reason not to include pauses for RT when they are doing it for WeGo, so basically there is no need for further discussion. +1 is the only worthy post that could be added to this thread, imo.

So:

+1 for RT TCP/IP wP and Wego TCP/IP

Rant Edit: Or should we deny those pesky WeGo 'ers their feature and have them come over to RT TCP/IP. WeGo Sucks because noone wants to wait on those lame slow grogs taking forever with their turns. So, i'm only for RT TCP/IP with PAUSE but AGAINST any WeGo replay form. Even if the time to add it would be marginal, please do NOT add this feature to the game