Tank flipping in WW2?

[noxnoctum]

I was having an argument over some rules in a Red Orchestra tournament... they had banned tank flipping (i.e. intentionally ramming your tank into another with the intention of making it at least point up in the air, if not completely turn it on its side)... and I was complaining that the Russians had actually done this in WW2. I swear I read about it somewhere but I can't remember... does anyone have evidence for this or am I wrong? Pictures would be great , but just a link to a reliable source would be fine too.

[Lt Belenko]

I've heard of house flipping and cow tipping. But tank flipping?

Sounds like a "no s#I+" story told in the VFW. The only difference between a "no s#!+" story and a fairy tale is the fairy tale starts off "Once upon a time...."

Let'us say in the 5 years of war, 5000 German tanks met 40,000 Allied tanks - anything could have happened. I bet there was even a case or two of a MG bullet going down a barrel of a gun the instant the breech was opened and the bullet set off the ammo inside. Anything could happen.

But tank flipping a as a planned tactic - probably not.

[flamingknives]

Ramming one tank with another did happen but usually as a last resort that disabled both vehicles and had negative effects on the crew. Knocking two 30t+ vehicles together at speed is not something to be taken lightly.

I would guess that the game mechanics do not properly penalise the impacting tank, so tank flipping sounds like an exploit of the game code.

[dieseltaylor]

There are some pictures from the Eastern front showing tanks that were meant to have rammed. Given how close Russian tanks had to get hardly surprising. If memory serves it was a particularly massive battle where dust etc made ranges very short.

Incidentally I bet they ban stacking T34's on top of each other to cross a river. That did happen : )

Unfortunately i lack the desire to find open my books to find the pictures. In game context though I think it is a fair enough. How do they cover though people parking vehicles to prevent road movement? I assume shunting is allowed?

[hoolaman]

Ramming one tank with another did happen but usually as a last resort that disabled both vehicles and had negative effects on the crew. Knocking two 30t+ vehicles together at speed is not something to be taken lightly.

I would guess that the game mechanics do not properly penalise the impacting tank, so tank flipping sounds like an exploit of the game code.

Yeah, I think this sort of thing has been discussed here before. Running into anything solid in a vehicle travelling at 40 km/h is a pretty bad idea. WWII tanks had a lot of protruding metal bits and definitely no airbags.

OTOH if you were about to get blown up it might be the better option.

[JoMac]

It figures that Noxnoctum would bring something like this up.

I have seen that retarded stunt pulled by players all the time in RO, among other things...but hey, its unfortunately a no-holds-bar kind of game anyways and very little is remotely realistic.

If it was up to me half-the things in RO would be banned.

- Ramming, use of enemy weapons, Setting off charges before entering vehicle, etc, etc.

I just hope they fix most of these issues in RO: HoS, but I fear some things will not change.

Joe

[Michael Emrys]

There are some pictures from the Eastern front showing tanks that were meant to have rammed. Given how close Russian tanks had to get hardly surprising. If memory serves it was a particularly massive battle where dust etc made ranges very short.

I've heard of this, particularly in the context of the Kursk battle. Whether this was an intentional tactic or just the accidental outcome of necessarily having to close with the Tigers in order to get a killing shot and simply colliding in the dust, smoke, confusion, and excitement of battle is a question I've never seen the answer to. In fact, the collisions themselves have scanty documentation, depending so far on anecdotal evidence well after the fact.

Michael

[Stalins Organ]

And any damage is probably not going ot include turning the target over - wiping of a track maybe, giving the crew a serious headache sure.....putting yourself in a position where your medium velocity 76mm gun can actually penetrate the side the tiger definitely.

AFAIK at Kursk it was unintentional and a result of the dust and numbers involved.

[Affentitten]

T-34 = 26.5 tons

Panther = 45 tons

Tiger 1 = 57 tons

Somebody do the numbers. My guess would be that it's possible, but the Russian crew would be jelly.

[noxnoctum]

It figures that Noxnoctum would bring something like this up.

I have seen that retarded stunt pulled by players all the time in RO, among other things...but hey, its unfortunately a no-holds-bar kind of game anyways and very little is remotely realistic.

If it was up to me half-the things in RO would be banned.

- Ramming, use of enemy weapons, Setting off charges before entering vehicle, etc, etc.

I just hope they fix most of these issues in RO: HoS, but I fear some things will not change.

Joe

Whilst taking part in Operation Goodwood east of Cagny, Lt John Gorman who was a Troop Commander in the 2nd Armoured Battalion was probing forward in his Sherman tank 'Ballyragget' when suddenly he found himself broadside to a German King Tiger , the massive German tank that no-one had yet seen. On seeing the tank he gave the order to fire his 75mm gun at it but it just bounced off the armour of the great German monster. On giving the order to fire again he was informed by the gunner that the gun was jammed and could not fire again. By now the German Tiger Tank was traversing his 88m gun onto the defenceless Sherman tank. On seeing this Lt Gorman ordered his driver L/Cpl James Brown to ram the Tiger Tank. Ballyragget struck the German tank amidships disabling the tank and causing its crew to bail out. After seeing his own crew to saftey, Lt Gorman commandeered a Firefly, 'Ballymena', whose commander had been killed and continued to fire at the Tiger tank with his new-found 18 pounder gun until it's destruction was complete. For this action Lt John Gorman was awarded the Military Cross and his driver L/Cpl James Brown was awarded the Military Medal.

Full story:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=144696

[Affentitten]

"Ballyragget struck the German tank amidships disabling the tank and causing its crew to bail out. "

'Disabling' covers a multitude of outcomes, most of them a long way short of flipping or tipping the King Tiger.

[Stalins Organ]

There's a very long thread over at Armchair General that includes at least 1 account of a tank being found on its side after a battle near Orel with the uphill side stoved in suggesting it was rammed - it doesn't say what type the tank is tho.

[Other Means]

The only time I've heard of a tank actually "flipped" was after heavy bombing in Normandy. Pretty hard to flip something heavier than you.

[Stalins Organ]

I've seen photos of Soviet tanks on their sides or backs in 1941 - T28's 7 BT's - IIRC the captions mostly say they are from air attack too.

[noxnoctum]

"Ballyragget struck the German tank amidships disabling the tank and causing its crew to bail out. "

'Disabling' covers a multitude of outcomes, most of them a long way short of flipping or tipping the King Tiger.

Aye but a T34 might be able to turn on its side a PZIV (more or less the same weight IIRC).

Obviously nothing will flip a KT.

[dieseltaylor]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=144696

This linky of nox's is definitely worth reading as it also contrasts the official story versus the main mans.

[JoMac]

'Red Orchestra' has done a poor job on how it handles 'Tank Ramming' or 'Tank Flipping...among other things.

Its simply wrong & stupid, and happens all time on the battlefield.

Basically, any vehicle ( AC, Truck, Tank, etc, ) can ram into another vehicle with no adverse affects to each other physically ( no damage to vehicle or crew ), except the vehicle getting rammed tends to semi-flip on its side and dragged across the battlefield like a cartoon.

One example is the tendency of a Russian player to ram his AC, or German player his HT into sides of tanks in an attempt to flip them.

Again, players tend to expoit this Modeling problem to their advantage...simply cause they can.

Its really up to a clan running the server to impose such restrictions they feel is necessary.

[gautrek]

Its not red orchestra doing a poor job.Its the old unreal game engine they are using.As it struggles with cover behind objects and laying down on the ground as well.But how old is the original engine now?

[JoMac]

Yeah I know, there are alot of other anomilies that occur in RO due to the old unreal game engine.

I just hope that RO: HoS with its newer unreal engine addresses many of these issues, and make this game closer to a realistic simulation.

[dieseltaylor]

CM is noticeable for not allowing ramming to flip. I was very put out to find that ramming a BA64 [armoured car weight 2.4tons] side on with a STugIII resulted in no damage. That is plain silly, one suspects Jeeps would also be invulnerable!.

OK game engine constraints etc but when fighting in dense fog , dust, or smoke this sort of incident does arise.

[noxnoctum]

Its not red orchestra doing a poor job.Its the old unreal game engine they are using.As it struggles with cover behind objects and laying down on the ground as well.But how old is the original engine now?

^^^ This. The engine is ancient.

The new game will let individual crewmen be killed INSIDE the tank and have you actually crawling around inside it (ala Silent Hunter for example, but in a tank)

[undead reindeer cavalry]