Olympic Class Grenade Throwing!

[c3k]

I have noticed too many instances of the "rain of grenades" where a squad throws about 2 grenades per man simultaneously. Now, I can rationalize it in close terrain, be it heavy woods or urban areas. Especially if they've closed to a group of enemy they can see. (I like being able to grenade a building before I storm it, but could I PLEASE only have a few grenades (1, 2?) instead of a dozen? This is a gripe for TARGET LIGHT with no known enemy. But that's grist for a different mill.)

What I am "curious" about is the maximum game RANGE of the thrown grenade. I've only thrown a few live grenades in training. I don't think I'm a pussy, but there's NO way I could throw it the 100+ feet I'm seeing in-game. Or do I need to work on my shoulders some more? (A quick measurement shows 48m and 59m for two throws. That's 158 feet and 194 feet! Oh, and they were throwing UPHILL. )

So, I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there with FAR more grenade throwing experience than I have. How far can you throw one? How accurately?

Not only do these in-game athletes throw the grenades that far, but their accuracy is better than most MLB pitchers! I mean, under fire, life or death, obscurants filling the air, targets behind shrubs, brush and trees, and these OLYMPIANS manage to hurl their bomblets 35 meters to land RIGHT ON the cluster of 3 men!! Oh, and they've timed the fuse so it explodes IMMEDIATELY! "Cook it, cook it, easy, cook it, throw it...NOW!" Contact fused?

As for the contact detonation, a timer for each grenade (I know, I know, CPU cycles...) would be a nice to have feature. It could cause some grenades on their ballistic trajectory to explode before reentry. Airburst, cool. It could ALLOW the poor SOB who just had a grenade hit his helmet a chance at scurrying out of the way. Or the cluster of men a similar chance of improving their survival odds.

Okay, yeah, too late, the series is closing out, etc., etc., but I felt this needed to be brought up. It has NOTHING to do with my losing over half of two separate Marine squads to a couple of Syrian Olympic Grenade Throwers. Grrrr.

Ken

[Wicky]

http://www.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/134732.html

Certainly to throw a cricket ball (5 1/2 oz - 155 grammes - 140 yds 2 ft (422 ft, 128.6 m) would be prodigious effort - further than the maximum length of a football pitch. In those days contestants often threw from buckets is order to prevent advantage being gained by stealing feet from run-ins. The measurements of the throw were sometimes ascertained with chains. The obvious handicap of throwing from a bucket is redolent of fairground gimmickry; the impedimenta of the more serious competitions was less inhibiting.

The distance certainly seems within human reach - there are several throws of between 120 - 135 yards. Spofforth threw 12 yards in 1867; W. F. Forbes, an Eton College schoolboy, threw 132 yards at the age of 18 in 1876; D. G. Foster of Warwickshire twice threw over 130 yards.

Ian Leslie Pont (born 28 August 1961 in Brentwood, Essex, England) is an English former cricketer. Known for a powerful throw and a brief foray into the world of baseball

Whilst in South Africa, he recorded the second longest throw of a cricket ball of all time, throwing 138 yards in Cape Town.

As for accuracy...

[panzermartin]

Yeah this is quite common. I'm guessing only the german stick grenade could be thrown that far. According to wiki the "potato masher" could be thrown to a distance up to 30-40 yards. Still less though than CMSF's ranges. Combined with the tradition in olympic medals, arian characteristics and CM's grenade engine, the germans can have a significant gamey advantage with their mini M24 artillery

[c3k]

Wicky, I like it... I'm waiting for the animation of a Syrian running forward, arm windmilling, bowling that grenade (RGD-5?) at the head of the unfortunate Marine he's spotted. "Thunk" "Boom" "Aaaaaahhhhhh, I'm hit!"

A bit of sluething turned up this: "The M67 can be thrown about 50 to 60 meters by the average soldier." Now, it's from Wikipedia. 200 feet? Average? C'mon. Go grab something that weighs a pound and see how far you can throw it. For example, an average baseball weighs around 145 grams and the M67 grenade weighs 400 grams. Take 2 3/4 baseballs, tape them together, and let me know how far they go. Have you ever seen someone who is not a pitcher try to throw an opening pitch? It's only got to go 60 1/2 feet (about 18 meters). A lot of one-bouncers out there. For a visual, the distance from home plate to second base is 127' 3 3/8". So, look at a ball field and image the catcher throwing, not just to second base, but adding the distance from home to the pitcher's mound BEYOND second base; 127+60=187 feet. That's how far the AVERAGE grenade thrower can throw? Sheesh.

The M67 weighs 14 ounces: mash 4 quarter pounder burgers together (after removing one bun), that should be about right. Can you throw it 200 feet...ON AVERAGE? How about a decent wrench? Don't spin it like a stick grenade, that'd be cheating. Hurl it. Do it while you're lying prone. 200 feet?

Ken "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!"

[stikkypixie]

Wicky, I like it... I'm waiting for the animation of a Syrian running forward, arm windmilling, bowling that grenade (RGD-5?) at the head of the unfortunate Marine he's spotted. "Thunk" "Boom" "Aaaaaahhhhhh, I'm hit!"

A bit of sluething turned up this: "The M67 can be thrown about 50 to 60 meters by the average soldier." Now, it's from Wikipedia. 200 feet? Average? C'mon. Go grab something that weighs a pound and see how far you can throw it. For example, an average baseball weighs around 145 grams and the M67 grenade weighs 400 grams. Take 2 3/4 baseballs, tape them together, and let me know how far they go. Have you ever seen someone who is not a pitcher try to throw an opening pitch? It's only got to go 60 1/2 feet (about 18 meters). A lot of one-bouncers out there. For a visual, the distance from home plate to second base is 127' 3 3/8". So, look at a ball field and image the catcher throwing, not just to second base, but adding the distance from home to the pitcher's mound BEYOND second base; 127+60=187 feet. That's how far the AVERAGE grenade thrower can throw? Sheesh.

The M67 weighs 14 ounces: mash 4 quarter pounder burgers together (after removing one bun), that should be about right. Can you throw it 200 feet...ON AVERAGE? How about a decent wrench? Don't spin it like a stick grenade, that'd be cheating. Hurl it. Do it while you're lying prone. 200 feet?

Ken "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!"

I'm not very familiar with baseball, but pitchers tend to throw straight right? Couldn't you get more distance if you arc the ball at 45°?

[Wicky]

If a cricket ball doesn't cut the mustard then wot about Welly Wanging (size eight Dunlop challenger wellington boot): According to Guinness World Records, the distance record for men is 63.98m (209' 9") by Teppo Luoma. Womens record is 40.87m (134' 12") by Sari Tirkkonen

Aussie Thong Wanging: Desert wellies issued: Maj Justin Andersen shows superb style in the thong throwing at Camp Smitty, part of their Australia Day celebrations.

http://www.shaunthesheep.com/games/wellywanger

Personal best 1436m!

[c3k]

A test: I don't have a grenade to test throw, but my wife does have an 8 pound cat. Using a feline-body-grip and side-arm technique I successfully threw the cat approximately 25 feet.* No further tests were run.** Extrapolating out, the cat being 8 times heavier than an M67 grenade, we can assume that the distance a grenade could be thrown would be 8 times more than the test cat. 8 times 25 feet does, indeed, yield 200 feet.

* - The distance is only approximate: the cat did not remain stationary while I ran a tape measure the spotted landing point.

** - The test could not be duplicated. The cat ran off and remains missing. The favored throwing arm has been rendered sub-optimal for further testing due to multiple, deep, bleeding furrows being scored into the flesh of the forearm.

Okay, joking aside, I DO have a point. The barrage of contact-fused grenades seems a bit too effective.

The grenades seem to explode, not on contact, but once they stop moving. A hit, a bounce, a roll....BOOM. (They may, indeed, be individually timed, but the consistency of exploding based on stopping seems to argue against that.)

However, the single biggest factor seems to be the algorithm which calculates when a unit should throw grenades. It seems to be done on a UNIT basis, not an individual. So, when a unit of 7 men gets the "THROW GRENADES" code, all 7 men throw grenades simultaneously. Would it not be a tad more realistic if this were done on a man by man basis?

An anecdote: a pre-positioned, but not dug-in, Marine unit met an attack of Syrians. The Marines were in a tree line (light) facing the anticipated enemy. The Marines were unsuppressed. They consisted of 2 full squads and 2 mounted M240G machineguns, plus the 2 man platoon HQ. The Syrians advanced (QUICK?) over OPEN ground. The Syrians, taking casualties, halted and threw a grenade barrage. Over 20 were thrown in a few seconds. The Marines suffered 15 casualties (KIA, Heavy WIA, Light WIA). The Marines were TOTALLY suppressed/Pinned. More mayhem followed.

Another quick check showed walls being ineffective vs. grenades. The grenades ROLL through walls, rendering stone walls ineffective. (I know, they do this as well through building walls and roofs.)

Am I totally off base by thinking that the grenade thing is just a bit too much of a good thing?

Thanks,

Ken

[vincere]

However, the single biggest factor seems to be the algorithm which calculates when a unit should throw grenades. It seems to be done on a UNIT basis, not an individual. So, when a unit of 7 men gets the "THROW GRENADES" code, all 7 men throw grenades simultaneously. Would it not be a tad more realistic if this were done on a man by man basis?

An anecdote: a pre-positioned, but not dug-in, Marine unit met an attack of Syrians. The Marines were in a tree line (light) facing the anticipated enemy. The Marines were unsuppressed. They consisted of 2 full squads and 2 mounted M240G machineguns, plus the 2 man platoon HQ. The Syrians advanced (QUICK?) over OPEN ground. The Syrians, taking casualties, halted and threw a grenade barrage. Over 20 were thrown in a few seconds. The Marines suffered 15 casualties (KIA, Heavy WIA, Light WIA). The Marines were TOTALLY suppressed/Pinned. More mayhem followed.

Another quick check showed walls being ineffective vs. grenades. The grenades ROLL through walls, rendering stone walls ineffective. (I know, they do this as well through building walls and roofs.)

Am I totally off base by thinking that the grenade thing is just a bit too much of a good thing?

Thanks,

Ken

Not way off base. Clearly would benefit from some tweaking.

ps glad the cat wasn't harmed in your test

[ChrisND]

A test: I don't have a grenade to test throw, but my wife does have an 8 pound cat. Using a feline-body-grip and side-arm technique I successfully threw the cat approximately 25 feet.* No further tests were run.** Extrapolating out, the cat being 8 times heavier than an M67 grenade, we can assume that the distance a grenade could be thrown would be 8 times more than the test cat. 8 times 25 feet does, indeed, yield 200 feet.

* - The distance is only approximate: the cat did not remain stationary while I ran a tape measure the spotted landing point.

** - The test could not be duplicated. The cat ran off and remains missing. The favored throwing arm has been rendered sub-optimal for further testing due to multiple, deep, bleeding furrows being scored into the flesh of the forearm.

The cat will remain a suboptimal text subject until you solve the problem of the momentum lost as your flesh resists the movement of the claws through it. I recommend coating the arm with a lubricant, or better yet, some chain mail armor.

[c3k]

The more I cogitate upon this matter, the more convinced I am that, the physics of game grenades aside, the main point is the UNIT as a whole deciding to throw multiple grenades simultaneously against their foe.

Ken

[womble]

A test: I don't have a grenade to test throw, but my wife does have an 8 pound cat....

That's cheered me up no end. Ta

An anecdote: a pre-positioned, but not dug-in, Marine unit met an attack of Syrians. The Marines were in a tree line (light) facing the anticipated enemy. The Marines were unsuppressed. They consisted of 2 full squads and 2 mounted M240G machineguns, plus the 2 man platoon HQ. The Syrians advanced (QUICK?) over OPEN ground. The Syrians, taking casualties, halted and threw a grenade barrage. Over 20 were thrown in a few seconds. The Marines suffered 15 casualties (KIA, Heavy WIA, Light WIA). The Marines were TOTALLY suppressed/Pinned. More mayhem followed.

That specific example (given the range and power of grenades as modelled) seems to be a good argument for 'volleying' grenades being a standard doctrine...

[Erwin]

Makes you wonder why the Marines didn't throw em first...

[Battlefront.com]

As for the volley issue... this is a bug in v1.21 and earlier. It's been fixed for a while now internally and you'll see the fix with v1.30. That will come out with NATO for all CM:SF players. CM: Afghanistan probably already has the fix in it, but if not it will be in the upcoming patch for that.

Steve

[Praetori]

What I am "curious" about is the maximum game RANGE of the thrown grenade. I've only thrown a few live grenades in training. I don't think I'm a pussy, but there's NO way I could throw it the 100+ feet I'm seeing in-game. Or do I need to work on my shoulders some more? (A quick measurement shows 48m and 59m for two throws. That's 158 feet and 194 feet! Oh, and they were throwing UPHILL. )

So, I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there with FAR more grenade throwing experience than I have. How far can you throw one? How accurately?

Ken

It's funny. I was just the other day thinking about an exercise we had when I was still serving as an officer. We (well mostly the soldiers) threw A LOT of grenades that day. It however started with blinds (for training purposes).

They went from standing to kneeling to prone and threw in different environments against various targets, all wore full combat gear.

Now this may not be representative for all forces across the globe and combat experience with grenades is nil and nothing. But here goes.

+60m is not impossible (there was a former quarterback in a squad that could hurl that thing amazingly far with accuracy) but I'd say that from a standing position anything above 30m and accuracy is worthless. Hitting a grouped MG position from that distance proved VERY hard (and I mean that less than 1/5 of all the 'nades would have put that position out of action).

Now I'm not saying that it's not possible to hurl a grenade further, but it's like opening up on a target 1000m out with an AR, you won't hit very often.

From a prone position the soldiers could barely hit a foxhole from 10m (I'd say 5m for good accuracy). It's really hard to throw something very far when prone on the ground in full gear.

What proved most entertaining though was forest. Throwing a grenade in a forest is like begging for trouble. Your aim has to be flawless or the explosive little bugger starts going flipper between the trunks. Or as in one case, flew some 15m (at high angle), bounced two times and then landed almost at the feet of the thrower.

Now I've seen some special forces guys throw practice grenades through windows from across a street (no we're not talking about a boulevard here, but still). But then again it's hard to judge if it's really representable.

There's bound to be some documentation somewhere (probably from the battle of Stalingrad?) from where more proper values could be derived though.

conclusions: Throwing far isn't the hard part. Actually hitting anything is. You need to get pretty close, and when going full tilt for range that (in my experience) will be extremely difficult.

[c3k]

Steve,

Outstanding! Glad to hear you've, once again, taken a suggestion of mine and included it in patch.

Without trying to nerf grenades too much, any chance on reducing accuracy/range? Or, at least making accuracy inversely proportional to range? (Even cooler would be changing max range based on the posture of the individual throwing the grenade.) I won't even DARE to inquire about allowing grenades to carom off of trees or other undergrowth.

Thanks,

Ken