New movement option - *Storm Room* Possible?

[meade95]

Poster "muddy boots" brought up the good idea of implementing a new movement option that would go a long way towards helping CMSF with regards to MOUT..... That is, allowing for a new movement option that simulates the professionalism of a trained units when clearing rooms..... The use of a "storm" room movement option would be a great addition to CMSF.

As is, I find the clearing of rooms (especially by blue forces) to not be all that accurate in terms of simulating clearing rooms / structures.

But the implementation of a new movement key when in need of doing this could go a long way in improving that within CMSF...

[Jonny(FGM)]

Im just wondering if watching too many clips of special forces at work has clouded many peoples judgement of how real MOUT fights happen, I'm going to go find a youtube clip to demonstrate this . . . . .

[Jonny(FGM)]

Here we go.

The entire video is worth a watch but the relevant bits are from about 4:30 onwards

[Muddy boots]

Hey, I'm honoured to be mentioned!

I'd been thinking about it and saw that Chainsaw mentions in his building assault thread, that infantry won't enter a room without first chucking in a grenade then having the first man or two go in through the door firing away as they do so. Would be great if it could be done in CM, as windowless rooms = certain doom for attackers breaking in. Using the hunt option is a no-no, using assault means half the squad stay out of the room until the first half have been slaughtered, and using fast or quick is kind of like the section commander saying 'right lads, here's the plan: we all leg it into the middle of the room, then once we're in there we'll have a look for any enemy'....cue senseless slaughter Cheers

[Pandur]

surely it is possible, but i dont think it will make it in. if you compare CMx1 to CMx2 you find that many sophisticated movement orders are droped.

the UI is supposedly more streamlined and more accessible and overloading it with additional orders it doesnt even have room for is not intended or even possible at times.

in my view we sacrifice sophisticated movement orders for a more streamlined RT game UI. i dont see any other reason.

the game is out since when? was it mid 2007 oder 2008? anyways, the strongly missing cover armor arc was not included up to now. i know steve said its on the list, but i guess a new UI is in order to make room for more orders in the different tabs.

the CMSF UI was a "one way" street anyways(i dont think we have the tab system in normandy, if yes i gona face palm ), so most probably they wont squeeze in a "storm room" command out of a sudden, becouse it is not possible. how many "empty fields" are left in the "movement tab? there is a maximum of 9 per tab...so.

[meade95]

Here we go.

The entire video is worth a watch but the relevant bits are from about 4:30 onwards

Granted, this is how MOUT can go, under all the various circumstances, troop levels, experience, etc.....Which CMSF allows for.

However, there are still times, circumstances, troop levels, experience, prior Intel, etc, etc....where as players having the ability to use another "Strom" type movement plan, to simulate the clearing of a room / building by certain units would be much appreciated and useful. Giving players / designers / customers more options should only be seen as a plus at this point for CMSF / BFC...

[Chainsaw]

Indeed, a "clear room" command would be much loved and used.

[ChrisND]

Im just wondering if watching too many clips of special forces at work has clouded many peoples judgement of how real MOUT fights happen, I'm going to go find a youtube clip to demonstrate this . . . . .

At the same time, though, real MOUT doesn't happen with the troopers running into the room, ignoring everything around them, getting to their far corner, then slowly turning around and looking for a threat.

[zwobot]

If the "storm room" would make the unit throw a few grenades into a room and then enter it that would be very nice. Similar to the "Blast" order but with handgrenades instead of det. charges.

This is already possible with queueing existing commands in realtime and micromanaging target and clear target orders but totally impossible to time in PBEM / Wego.

[akd]

The "assault" command could simply be made context sensitive, causing the lead soldiers to toss one or two grenades into a structure/room/trench when that is the order destination. Perhaps more control could be exercised by having it only work if the order is issued from (or if the previous waypoint is) within grenade range. The order could still be combined with "target" when you know the structure to be occupied. Possible problem: assault command is not available to all dismounted units, but I'm sure there is a simple way around that.

There needs to be something down these lines implemented, as the micromanagement techniques we are forced into are sometimes only viable in realtime play and somewhat ineffective regardless. A squad will typically exhaust half their grenade supply on a single, possibly empty, room.

[MeatEtr]

The problem isn't that we need a new storm command. It's that the assault order should be executed differently when used on buildings. In the open ground it works fine.

This is not a CQB simulator, but the way it looks when infantry assault buildings could some tweaking.

[meade95]

There needs to be something down these lines implemented, as the micromanagement techniques we are forced into are sometimes only viable in realtime play and somewhat ineffective regardless. A squad will typically exhaust half their grenade supply on a single, possibly empty, room.

Exactly! - This is why even when micro-managing, it is still a problem. The using up of grenades happens quite quickly -

Even with the suggestion that CMSF is not a CCQ simulator.....If it is suppose to be able to represent MOUT type operations, CCQ is 100% part of that....

Tweaking the clearing of rooms via a new movement command or how assault works now (when entering a building) would definitely be wonderful...

[LongLeftFlank]

As I just said in another thread, I have gotten very good results using good old recon by Area Fire. Hidden RED units tend to reveal themselves upon being discomfited and their reception is a lot less effective when they're pinned. It is slow, yes, but so is real life building assault. Gamers have a tendency to want things to happen far more quickly than real life soldiers would ever proceed in any but the direst circumstances.

Don't get all chivalric about RoE -- even in COIN those go out the window as soon as more than about a dozen weapons open up. And in front line engagements, RoE means only hold off on the JDAMs until you have confirmed targets.

Send bullets, not men.

[Chainsaw]

the big problem with area fire is that you cant area fire room for room when there is only a door seperating. there has to be a door and a window for you to be able to area fire into next room before moving on.

In real life before moving thrue that door (if there was no other route) you would toss in handgrenades or flashbangs. wich we cant do in CMSF right now. and clear room (or modified assault command) would lessen upp the micromanagement that has to be done to order a sequense of room clearing in WEGO for example, where you first have to plot the route, then mark the triangels and then give target light order on next room.

[stikkypixie]

I hope we get an animation where each time a door was opened to throw grenades, you get immediate counter-fire.

[-Eddie-]

The way infantry assault buildings in this game pains me. Now I know they're not all 'sAS/d3lta' guys but come on, common sense?

In hunt, the first guy who enters the room will find the enemy, great. He then stops just inside the doorway, the rest of the section/squad will sit outside while Mr. Rambo battles it out and usually dies.

In quick, as has been said: Run into room, stand in the middle/corner, wonder why 3 men are dead, look around, maybe win.

Assault is four men (section setup) running into a building, dying.

I know this isn't Afghanistan but bear with me please. In the book 'Attack State Red' it details how British forces in Afghanistan (Royal Anglian Regiment) enter compounds at Attack State: Red (maximum force). They blow down compound walls with bar mines (which we already have and work great) and then throw grenades in through the doors before running in firing.

Something like this or a modification to the assault command like in a previous post would be a welcome improvement.

I usually say 'screw the civilian parameters, I know there's something in that building, stick as much firepower on it as I can', send a squad in there quick and then cancel target fire at the last minute. This works well apart from when you have limited ammunition.

Then again, even the best laid plans go to waste.

[meade95]

Side question? There is still no way to replenish hand grenades yet, is there?

[Chainsaw]

No meade95, you still cant...

[meade95]

No meade95, you still cant...

Darn! I was hoping perhaps I missed this and have simply been playing while clueless to an update covering it......

Is there going to be any further updates to CMSF? Do we have an official word on this?

[Alan8325]

Darn! I was hoping perhaps I missed this and have simply been playing while clueless to an update covering it......

Is there going to be any further updates to CMSF? Do we have an official word on this?

There will, in all likelihood, be at least one more major update with the Nato module, which would also be downloadable as a patch to the base game. After that probably no more major updates, only bug fixes. The really major updates, however, like some in CM:Normandy, are only in new games and will never come to CMSF or its modules.