Recon

[Wodin]

Anyone give me some tips for recon. I've tried in one scenario to send up my Jackals to the top of a ridge pause 15 secs then reverse. Sometimes they do take fire but no icon comes up to give me an idea on where the fire is coming from. Another one Ive tried is to motor fast upto as close as I dare to where I think the enemy is then motor along the precieved line. This is more of a suicide mission though:). Am I supposed to recon by fire? Come upto the ridge say then let loose on a building for a few seconds then reverse? The downside I see with this is its more than likely I'm firing into buildings with no one in and its a waste of ammo.

So anytips are more than appreciated. Recon is the area I have the hardest time with.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Anyone give me some tips for recon. I've tried in one scenario to send up my Jackals to the top of a ridge pause 15 secs then reverse. Sometimes they do take fire but no icon comes up to give me an idea on where the fire is coming from.

Did you try putting either infantry or dismounts along the ridge to spot. They should remain hidden and be able to see more than the jackal

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Combat Mission doesn't really do reconnaissance in the traditional sense.

The moment you view the map, you must assume whatever recce is called for has been done already. Your job is to fight. Recce=reading the briefing.

That means that any mechanized recce elements you have are really just a poor man's fire support. The locating of enemies is really to be done with either adequately armoured elements or more discreetly by the infantry.

My favourite recce tool? The machine gun.

It's long range and typically generous ammo supply means you should be able to provoke a response from opposing long ranged units that isn't too deadly on most occasions. Or failing a response, fire with impunity in to suspected positions.

[Wodin]

Well I'm playing one of Paper Tigers missions (his missions are superb and his briefings second to none, they really help me in organinsing my forces and where to send them). In his briefing in mentions to recce the area before the main force arrives. Infact I've noticed two of his missions require this to start with. So with the small recce force I start of with I just need help in how to send them on this mission and get the best results.

Thanks Johnny for the advice.

Elmar I shall try recon by fire using the MG.

[Ryujin]

To add to the above, sometimes you can do some minor recon, either setting up a few dismounts to observe an area or sneak up closer to spot specific enemies. The goal of recon in the scope of CMSF is to ID exact enemy positions so you can bring your superior BLUFOR fire to bear. For the most part this doesn't require the dedicated recon units, they're more for "bigger picture recon". The only advantage they have is that many of the recon teams have a radioman in every team and in the case of the US army, M240 MGs which are rather nice when your in an overwatch position, they can act like an MG/FO hybrid.

Probably the best recon unit is a team of dismounts with a javelin CLU (thermal optics). Put those guys in a good overwatch position and they can usually spot without being spotted while also being able to pic off tanks.

The recon vehicles really aren't too useful, other than as some fire support. At least the US Army/USMC recon vehicles are decent in combat (M3A3, LAV-25, Stryker RV, HMMWVs). The jackels are a bit too vulnerable for most combat. They can be great if you can establish fire superiority on some infantry and use them en masse to suppress, they do have a lot of firepower even at very long ranges.

[DaveDash]

I think I have almost "mastered" a lot of this game except the recon element with vehicles. My LAVS etc might as well be called Light Suicide Vehicles. Even in hull down positions they just get smoked by ATGMs, and a 1:1 trade LAV for ATGM is not worth it IMO.

I know in one of Paper Tiger's mission (Caine and Abel) his briefing is slightly misleading on purpose, and you're meant to lose at least one recon element before you understand what's up. Parking your vehicles in trees certainly helps but some may feel this is gamey.

Basically what Elmar said is right. Recon is best done with infantry (more probing that actual recce) and if you want to draw out ATGM fire use tanks (frontal arc only). Basically I will poke my tanks noses out and draw ATGM fire then 'AREA FIRE' like crazy on the area the ATGM's came from, keeping them surpressed until mortars finish the job. If you play RT, you can mess up the aim of most older ATGMs if you're quick enough (listen for the distinctive noise that sounds like something being fired out of a tube, its an ATGM) since they need to be guided to target.

Also one thing I have learnt recently is to pay attention to the red question marks that pop up. Hose them down with HE, mortars, or machine gun area fire even if you don't know what they are. Chances are they're an ATGM, RPG or machine gun if they pop up at range.

Javelin CLUs and Snipers are both pretty good foot recon elements. Move your foot recon elements forward slowly and in cover, and give them short covered arcs so they don't expose themselves by firing. Once you identify enemy elements pull them back and bring down indirect fire to destroy your targets.

[hoolaman]

In real life a conventional recce force is supposed to be large enough to engage or disengage from any conventional enemy force it encounters, which means they are large and capable combat formations.

In CMSF scenarios you are often given a couple of Jeeps for the first 20 minutes of the scenario and told to recce the area. In reality the best approach would be -and usually is- to wait for the rest of your force to arrive and do the recce work in enough force to deal with whatever you find.

Another disadvantage is that some of the sensor packages in the game seem to be undermodelled. There is a US recon sensor turret on humvees and strykers in the game that IRL can park 5km away and gather intelligence with high-fi IR and visual optics and transmit info to the combat net. They should have the spotting skill exceeding a tank but they never seem to work that way. The other disadvantage is that these weaponless vehicles still don't get to trace target/LOS so you can't position them very well to keep them alive.

[DaveDash]

Another disadvantage is that some of the sensor packages in the game seem to be undermodelled. There is a US recon sensor turret on humvees and strykers in the game that IRL can park 5km away and gather intelligence with high-fi IR and visual optics and transmit info to the combat net. They should have the spotting skill exceeding a tank but they never seem to work that way. The other disadvantage is that these weaponless vehicles still don't get to trace target/LOS so you can't position them very well to keep them alive.

Yep, I remember reading about those Recon HUMVEE's with the LRAS3 devices on top of them picking out infantry in buildings with ease, before the battle of Fallujah. The soldiers absolutely loved them.

I know they've been improved recently with patches but they generally can't spot jack sh*t. Scenario designers should just give you some early intel (which they often do) instead of another vehicle to manage.

Here is an article on the LRAS3. Interesting to note about it being used for the majority of fire missions (and enabling one shot one kill accuracy) and that it can be dismounted:

A combat multiplier in Iraq: the long range advance scout surveillance system

The long-range advanced scout surveillance system (LRAS3) greatly enhanced the survivability and lethality of the 3d Infantry Division (3d ID) during Operation Iraqi Freedom. This article is based on interviews with soldiers who used the system during combat operations in Iraq. These interviews gained valuable information on the system's performance during combat operations to confirm expectations and gather recommendations for product improvements.

The 3d ID received an out-of Department of the Army Master Priority List (DAMPL) fielding of the LRAS3 in February 2003 and the product office quickly conducted the fielding at Camp New York, Kuwait. To support this urgent requirement, product manager forward looking infrared (FLIR) provided a total of 42 systems, of which 39 systems were mounted on M1025/1026 and M1114 type vehicles. The three remaining systems were then issued to each forward support battalion as operational readiness floats (ORFs).

Each brigade received 13 mounted systems and one ORE Brigade reconnaissance troops (BRT) received four mounted systems and each maneuver battalion scout platoon received three mounted systems. In addition to system installation, the product manager provided new equipment training for crews assigned to the systems.

All soldiers interviewed expressed an intense satisfaction with the LRAS3's performance. Simply put, it enhanced their survivability by allowing them to maintain a significant standoff range outside Iraqi weapons systems. The scouts consistently detected Iraqi forces far in advance of being detected. This enhanced the scouts' effectiveness as the task force and brigade commanders' "eyes and ears," allowing them to quickly and accurately determine and report enemy target location and direction. With accurate enemy target locations, the scouts effectively called for artillery fire or close air support (CAS) and provided timely and accurate information to task force maneuver units.

All soldiers interviewed stated that the LRAS3 enabled them to perform their mission more effectively. During one interview, a crew assigned to one of the scout platoons established that prior to having LRAS3 they would maneuver their vehicle along the low ground to avoid detection by enemy forces. After receiving LRAS3, they adjusted this technique and maneuvered more frequently along the high ground because of the system's long-range target acquisition capabilities. This technique adjustment allowed the crew greater opportunity to acquire more enemy targets without having to assume unnecessary higher risk. The standoff range between the LRAS3 and enemy weapons systems proved most effective in enhancing crew survivability.

The range capability and image clarity provided by LRAS3 is credited with preventing several fratricides because operators could distinguish between enemy and friendly vehicles beyond the ranges of other systems. Two such incidents were related during the interviews. The first incident involved a supply sergeant who became navigationally challenged and entered an adjacent unit's sector. The LRAS3-equipped crew identified the vehicle and notified units in sector not to fire on the vehicle. The second incident involved a report from a local civilian of an unknown vehicle approaching the unit's sector. This civilian thought it was an Iraqi vehicle; the LRAS3-equipped crew quickly identified it as an M88 recovery vehicle moving into sector and notified adjacent units of the friendly vehicle.

LRAS3 worked extremely well in conjunction with other systems, such as the Force XXI battle command brigade and below (FBCB2) and the combat identification panels (CIP). Many of the crews interviewed highlighted this factor. Many of the operators related how the CIP were easily distinguished through the sensor. In addition, leaders at platoon and company levels remarked how using FBCB2 in conjunction with LRAS3 helped maintain situational awareness.

Enhancing survivability relates to protecting crews and soldiers. As mentioned earlier, LRAS3 enhances survivability by providing long-range target acquisition capabilities outside the capabilities of threat weapons systems. In other words, it provides standoff between the individual operating the LRAS3 and the threat weapons system. In addition to providing the crew with standoff, it allows the crew to rapidly forward enemy target locations, thereby providing early warning to adjacent-and higher units. The target information allows friendly forces to mass weapons effects based on the target information provided by the LRAS3. The ranges at which the crews acquired, detected, and identified targets depended on the weather, terrain, target type, and the experience level of the operator.

In addition to enhancing crew survivability, the LRAS3 greatly enhanced the lethality of the 3d Infantry Division. When accurate targeting information allows for the massing of friendly weapons' effects, a transition occurs from survivability to overwhelming lethality. Calling for close air support, indirect fires, or providing target location for maneuver units to close with and destroy enemy forces resulted in enhanced lethality.

The LRAS3 was also extremely effective in calling for fire support. According to those interviewed, the vast majority of fire missions were called by scouts with LRAS3. A number of soldiers related experiences of identifying an enemy target, calling for fire, and having the first round impact and destroy the target. According to most of the individuals interviewed, this first round impact occurred for a majority of the fire missions.

Those individuals who experienced the opportunity to call for fire support and CAS realized the potential value of an LRAS3 enhanced with a laser designator. One BRT commander felt that during one particular CAS mission, a great deal of collateral damage could have been prevented if his unit had an effective designator. He described the difficulty with trying to talk a pilot onto an enemy target.

The crews interviewed recommended an improvement to the system by having the direction to the target provided in both degrees and millimeters. During the fire mission, the fire support element (FSE) would require the direction to target be provided in millimeters before the mission would be fired. The scouts obliged by converting to millimeters but felt it would be extremely helpful if the LRAS3 would provide the conversion. However, they also wanted to maintain the direction in degrees. When communicating within the unit or with other maneuver units, the scouts preferred reporting enemy target direction using degrees. Having the system provide "mils and degrees" simultaneously is the desired endstate.

The LRAS3-equipped scouts worked very effectively with maneuver units, as they could pass target information to Abrams and Bradley Fighting Vehicle crews. In one particular incident, a tank crew identified an Iraqi engineer vehicle employing a minefield; however, the tank crew could not obtain a range to the target. The tank crew requested a range from the scouts. An LRAS3 crew identified the target, lased it for the far-target location, and passed the information to the tank crew. The tank crew then fed the range information into the computer and fired the first round, destroying the target.

There were numerous accounts of effective coordination between scouts and maneuver units based on the far-target acquisition and location capabilities of the LRAS3. Scouts usually avoided engaging enemy vehicles/ targets with their own direct fire weapons systems. The scouts either used indirect fire or passed the threat target information to maneuver units. The effectiveness of the LRAS3 allows scouts to maintain this technique.

The LRAS3 appeared to be very reliable. Most, if not all, crews interviewed stated they had operated the LRAS3 continuously during the entire operation--24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 21 days. Operators who did experience a system failure found that merely recycling the system power corrected the problem. As far as operating the system, most operators used the system primarily in the FLIR mode and very seldom used the day TV mode. Personal preference varied the response.

The LRAS3 also has the capability of being dismounted on a tripod and powered by batteries. The interviews revealed only one incident when the crew dismounted the system. This occurred at Baghdad International Airport where a crew mounted the system on top of the balcony of the airport's control tower. They stated that this worked very effectively, and the crew experienced the same lethal results as previously discussed. In general, it appears the division moved so rapidly that it was not feasible to dismount the system. However, this may very well change as the unit's mission evolves in Iraq. It may now be more feasible and desirable to dismount the system in an urban environment for security operations.

During fielding of the LRAS3, a battery charger was issued and installed on each LRAS3-equipped vehicle. The charger on the move (COTM) proved to be very versatile and useful for charging other weapons systems' batteries. The scouts used the system to recharge the thermal weapon sight's batteries continuously and effectively.

During the interviews, potential product Improvements were identified. Two recurring suggestions for product improvements warrant immediate attention. The first would remedy a conflict involving the amount of clearance between the mounted weapons system and the LRAS3. There are three different types of weapons systems that were mounted on the LRAS3-equipped vehicles: the MK19, the M2 .50 caliber, and the M240B. The MK19 seemed to present the greatest conflict, especially when attempting to reload the weapon. Because of this conflict, the gunner/LRAS3 operator must climb out of the hatch, stand on top of the vehicle, and lean over the edge of the vehicle while sliding a 60-pound ammunition can into the feeder tray. The conflict was not as great for the other weapons systems; however, there was a reported problem with an armor protection plate that was mounted on some of the vehicles. This additional armor protection plate, mounted in front of the operator, also restricted weapon movement due to the conflict with the vehicle-mounted yoke.

In addition to the movement conflict between weapons systems and the LRAS3, many of the operators felt the LRAS3 created a severe blind spot at the 2 to 3 o'clock position. A suggestion recommended offsetting the sensor at 90 to 180 degrees from the weapons system.

Another suggested improvement was to provide the vehicle commander with a flat panel screen. This would eliminate the commander and operator changing positions to allow the commander to verify the target before engaging the weapons systems. This improvement would save valuable time and effort during combat operations.

The 3d Infantry Division conducted highly successful operations in Iraq. The victory was a result of the dedicated leaders and brave soldiers of the 3d Infantry Division. The soldiers of the 3d Infantry Division displayed an ability to implement the latest technology into current operations. Their experience with LRAS3 was successful and they provided valuable information to future users and material developers.

[Alan8325]

Yep, I remember reading about those Recon HUMVEE's with the LRAS3 devices on top of them picking out infantry in buildings with ease, before the battle of Fallujah. The soldiers absolutely loved them.

I know they've been improved recently with patches but they generally can't spot jack sh*t. Scenario designers should just give you some early intel (which they often do) instead of another vehicle to manage.

Here is an article on the LRAS3. Interesting to note about it being used for the majority of fire missions (and enabling one shot one kill accuracy) and that it can be dismounted:

The LRAS3 modeled in CMSF does a good job of significantly reducing arty and CAS call times, but as some above posters said, it really needs to provide a much bigger spotting bonus than it does now. As it stands now, you are better off using tanks or dismounts to spot and then, if needed, move the LRAS3 vehicle in a position to call arty or CAS on spotted enemy positions. I know we are generally dealing with distances under 1km, but it should still provide a noticeable spotting bonus at the relatively short ranges.

Perhaps being able to dismount it would also be helpful, due to the urban environments and short distances in CMSF, also mentioned in the above article about Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[c3k]

+2.........

[MikeyD]

Recon works a lot better (in real life as well as in the game) when the enemy is moving. You can spot a tank moving down a road from 2km+. A tank hidden between buildings? You could be fifty feet from it and not realize its there. If you've got your Jackal or other recce on a distant ridgeline as the enemy advances you're going to spot something. But if you're hunkered down on one ridgeline while they're hunkered down on another, not so much.

[DaveDash]

Recon works a lot better (in real life as well as in the game) when the enemy is moving. You can spot a tank moving down a road from 2km+. A tank hidden between buildings? You could be fifty feet from it and not realize its there. If you've got your Jackal or other recce on a distant ridgeline as the enemy advances you're going to spot something. But if you're hunkered down on one ridgeline while they're hunkered down on another, not so much.

With the MK1 eyeball yeah, but with thermals you'll see that tank pretty clearly. In game troops with thermals (Javelin CLU) are VERY good at spotting tanks before tanks spot them.

[Ryujin]

How detailed is the thermal modeling in CMSF anyway?

Does ambient temperature matter? As I understand it people are much harder to spot if ambient temperature is near body temperature, like in a hot desert day. A cold night on the other hand will cause them to really stand out. Sometimes thermal might not help too much, which might explain some situations.

I assuming the facing and what parts of a tank are seen don't matter. But it stands to reason that the turret will be a lot closer to ambient temperature than other parts (so harder to see in a hull down position). (unless the gun has been recently fired, the primary heat generating parts would be the engine/tracks).

If that tank hunkered down between two buildings had it's engine off for some time, I think it would be really hard to spot on thermal. The only time I've seen real thermal optics in person was on a stryker at an auto show, but those cars across the show room didn't stand out much at all, they were almost at room temperature, if a bit cooler (but you could still make them out ok). People were very, very easy to see though. This was in a BIG convention center, but still only a couple hundred meters max. At 1 to 2 km, a cool, slightly concealed tank could probably be spotted, but I don't thermal would make it any easier to find.

I think the spotting has been improved a lot in the patches, but sometimes there's situations where your LRAS3 is observing an area for minutes and doesn't pick up on a ton of guys in a tree line 700m away. It just seems like you should be getting at least ?s more often. While I'm playing I'll try to keep an eye out for specific examples.

[Wodin]

Maybe the spotting when using vehicles with high tech equipment needs a little boost. I'm a real novice with modern day weapon platforms etc so I have no idea on what vehicle is good for certain situations.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The tricky thing is the balance between what a sensored up vehicle can see and what it will see. If a vehicle has a long time to scan the area then by all means let him spot what is there to spot. But a momentary glance shouldn't reveal to much as the the zoom on those things means you'll probably miss a lot too.

Also note that most of what we gamers require our scouts to spot are stationary troops waiting for imminent combat. In real life there's always other stuff going on. Fetching and carrying or soldiers moving about for other reasons. That's the stuff that should get noticed. It's also what CMSF doesn't simulate.

A soldier with not getting noticed on his mind, which a stationary CMSF combattant is assumed to be, is and should be a lot trickier to spot.

BFC could try to simulate infantry behaviour that's more typical of what a soldier does with his day that might get him spotted. But typically it would just piss off the players trying to plan an ambush, as one of their soldiers gets spotted going for a smoke, or sumfink.

[Ryujin]

It does need a bit of boost in some situations.

As far as what vehicle is good for what, they're all very similar right now in terms of spotting. Almost every AFV has thermal and daylight optics (the IR optics can be damaged though, on a related note if you want to know if a vehicle has IR, check the damage panel and you'll see IR in there).

Any vehicle with IR has vastly improved spotting in most situations (note that the field of view can be limited and I think this is factored in chance to spot, mk1 eyeball may spot closer targets faster). IR can also see through non IR blocking smoke and sometimes dust. IR blocking smoke is brown.

Some IR systems offer more quality and magnification than others, but I haven't seen any noticeable spotting difference in CMSF, so any vehicle works.

EDIT: in response to above, I think you should start to get more ?s after a few minutes observation, except maybe when they are set to hiding or are in really good cover. Though I don't think it needs too big of a boost overall, just with systems like the LRAS3 and scouts/snipers in general.

[Paper Tiger]

Since the game has several temperature settings, perhaps we'd see different results from thermal optics if the scenario designer set the temperature at Cool or Cold rather than at Hot or Extreme Heat.

[ChrisND]

Speaking of spotting, the other day I ran some tests and found that night visibility in the game is affected by what phase the moon is in. Cool or what?

[Wodin]

The more written the more I'm left with my jaw dropping.