Troops Invincible in KOed Bunker

[MeatEtr]

So my Marines take out a bunker and the occupants run for their lives just to get mowed down. But there is just one holdout that remains inside, even though KOed bunkers are in-occupy-able. The problem is he's literally invulnerable to all fire and continues to kill my men. There must of been at least 20 grenades used, some AT-4s, grenade launchers, and of course a boatload of small arms fire. This is from two squads at the rear and front at point blank range.

I've re-loaded this battle at this point several times and it's like this every time. The only way to kill him is when he decides to run for it. He is Elite though, so understandable he doesn't surrender. But damn, this ends up being a huge ammo-drain. Surely this can't be right.

Anybody else seen this behavior before? (Scenario is Mud Marines by afreu) good fun

[Thomm]

I've re-loaded this battle at this point several times and it's like this every time.

Please keep the save game! Charles' attention is only triggered by save games most of the time (and I guess this is close to impossible to duplicate).

Unfortunately, I am not involved directly in NATO testing at the moment, but I am sure that a NATO tester will come along and pick the save game up.

Best regards,

Thomm

[MeatEtr]

Yeah I got the saved game, not sure if it goes back far enough though. It's from after KOing the bunker. Not sure if this would be all that hard to replicate as I've only assaulted a bunker up close with infantry a few times. Usually take them out at range and the squad just runs out.

But this happens early on in the scenario where there's two bunkers in the woods that need to be taken out. So could just restart it and try again.

[Paper Tiger]

Yes, I've seen this behaviour before only the hero (Syrian FOS) was in a trench surrounded by troops firing on him at point blank range. Because he was Crack/Fanatic, he wouldn't surrender so I just had to bring in a tank to finish him off. I brought it up a while ago but I can't remember what was done. I'll do a search later and see what that turns up and we'll see if it needs to be reported as a bug.

[MeatEtr]

Ok, but it's not about him fighting on, since he is Elite afterall and probably fanatic too. So I consider that behavior normal. It's about him staying in a KOed bunker and apparently becoming invulnerable to fire. At least until he tries to run out and then dies immediately.

[Paper Tiger]

Don't worry. I've posted about this with a link to your thread so we'll see what happens.

[Erwin]

Am having same problem with the Mud Marines bunkers. I took one out by massive conventional fire from the front. But, I got into the rear of two others thinking they would succumb easily, but even when KO'd, I can't kill the crews inside.

Was there any hints re this someplace?

[Erwin]

FYI: Re KO-ing the bunkers, I experimented with moving lots of inf in front the of the bunker and firing point blank. That caused a few casualties in the bunkers, but horrible friendly losses. So, that isn't the solution. Other than trying to find a range to use Javelins on the bunkers, they seem almost indestructible. Grenades and squad rockets don't seem to be powerful enuff to have effect.

PS: I have been saving the game at this point and replaying a dozen times, so if anyone at BF wants to see...?

The sad part is after many hours enjoying UK Mud Marines, I feel that it's too flawed. You do what seems logical, you think you're doing everything right re checking mobility issues on slopes/cliffs, as well as using squad rockets and position engineers with satchel charges next to bunkers and you don't get the desired result. The designer must have played this through. Am disappointed that nobody here seems to have played this scenario.

[akd]

I really wish bunkers were not treated as vehicles. Seems to cause many problems and just feels wrong.

[MarkEzra]

I really wish bunkers were not treated as vehicles. Seems to cause many problems and just feels wrong.

For bunkers to be hidden until sighted they must be a "unit", not a building.

[MeatEtr]

FYI: Re KO-ing the bunkers, I experimented with moving lots of inf in front the of the bunker and firing point blank. That caused a few casualties in the bunkers, but horrible friendly losses. So, that isn't the solution. Other than trying to find a range to use Javelins on the bunkers, they seem almost indestructible. Grenades and squad rockets don't seem to be powerful enuff to have effect.

PS: I have been saving the game at this point and replaying a dozen times, so if anyone at BF wants to see...?

The sad part is after many hours enjoying UK Mud Marines, I feel that it's too flawed. You do what seems logical, you think you're doing everything right re checking mobility issues on slopes/cliffs, as well as using squad rockets and position engineers with satchel charges next to bunkers and you don't get the desired result. The designer must have played this through. Am disappointed that nobody here seems to have played this scenario.

UK Mud Marines? is there a UK version of this scenario? Reason I ask is because I didn't have much trouble KOing the bunkers at all. I'd be willing to bet your seeing what I described in the opening post. The bunker does in fact get KOed, it's just that the occupants stay inside and become impossible to kill. At least until they decide to make a run for it.

I'm convinced this is a unintentional side effect from having a bunker in heavy woods that gets KOed and surrounded by the enemy. With the few fanatical troops inside that don't surrender and don't move.

Other than that, this scenario was great, had fun playing it. The Red arty is a major bitch to work through. Nicely made map too.

[akd]

For bunkers to be hidden until sighted they must be a "unit", not a building.

Yup, and it causes problems and feels wrong, but it is what it is.

[Blackcat]

The sad part is after many hours enjoying UK Mud Marines, I feel that it's too flawed. You do what seems logical, you think you're doing everything right re checking mobility issues on slopes/cliffs, as well as using squad rockets and position engineers with satchel charges next to bunkers and you don't get the desired result. The designer must have played this through. Am disappointed that nobody here seems to have played this scenario.

I think the Royal Mud Marines is impossible. I tried it many times, spending about a week of real time on it (the joys of retirement) but with the small squads, low ammo load-outs and grossly inadequate re-supply levels I eventually gave up. The USMC version was a lot of fun and comfortably doable.

On topic, in both versions I had occasions where those bunkers in the woods by the first objective were taken out as one would expect and times when either I couldn't destroy them and/or take out their crews no matter what I did.

However, I have also seen the same in other scenario's. One that springs to mind is the one in the USMC campaign where there is a Bunker in a walled courtyard by one of the objective buildings. Sometimes my pixeltruppen took out that bunker with infantry weapons, sometimes they couldn't.

My conclusion is that there is a deep-seated bug with bunkers. Most of the time they behave as one would expect but now and then they, or their crews, do not. What circumstances cause this problem to arise I have no idea, though I don't believe it has anything to do with woods, witness the Semper Fi campaign example above.

[Erwin]

"UK Mud Marines? is there a UK version of this scenario? Reason I ask is because I didn't have much trouble KOing the bunkers at all. I'd be willing to bet your seeing what I described in the opening post. The bunker does in fact get KOed, it's just that the occupants stay inside and become impossible to kill. At least until they decide to make a run for it.

I'm convinced this is a unintentional side effect from having a bunker in heavy woods that gets KOed and surrounded by the enemy. With the few fanatical troops inside that don't surrender and don't move.

Other than that, this scenario was great, had fun playing it. The Red arty is a major bitch to work through. Nicely made map too."

Yes, yes, and yes.

In UK Mud Marines, the problem is that one can KO the bunkers with squad weapons but the crews stay alive inside. One can kill the crews using frontal fire. I did that with the extreme right-most bunker as one can fire at it at range so the squad rockets can be used. But, the other two bunkers can only be targeted at close range, so missiles seem not to get used, only grenades. In addition, there seems to be no effect in targeting from the rear. So, you have to target through the bunkers' front arc. At close range this led to horrible casualties.

I will replay and get engineers close in and see if they use their demo charges on their own initiative (the bunkers can NOT be targeted for BLAST).

Disappointing that the game seems to not be working well re bunkers.

[Erwin]

Yes, yes and yes....

UK Mud Marines, is so far the best CM2 UK scenario I have played, and one of the best CM2 scenarios period. Up to my problem with the steep slope and bunkers, I thought it very winnable by the Brits (I didn't even know there was a USMC version).

Yes, the bunkers can be KO'd, but the crews live. My concern re the bunkers is whether the live crews in KO'd bunkers stop the UK from getting points for that victory location. I guess I should try a cease fire and see.

The bunkers seem impervious to fire from their rear. I killed the bunker and crew on the UK's extreme right flank as I was able to fire from a distance and squad missiles (LASM's) could fire.

But, the other two can only be targeted at close range, hence missiles are useless. But grenades and small fire are inadequate. One can hurt the crew by firing through the bunkers' frontal arc. But that uses huge amounts of ammo and leads to unacceptable UK casualties. Not practicable.

The engineers didn't seem to use their charges spontaneously, but I can retest that. You can NOT target a bunker with BLAST command.

Ok, I went back and in suicide attacked and KO'd the bunkers. So, I have 2 KO'd bunkers but with crews, one abandoned bunker, and one completely empty KO'd bunker. When I cease fired however, I still have not won that victory location.

So, from a fun POV the scenario is still great if one simply puts up with the fact that it is not worth the cost in men or ammo to KO the bunkers AND crews, May as well smoke em, go around their rear and carry on with the mission leaving the bunkers intact.

I hope I am doing something wrong, and someone here can instruct us on proper technique for bunker busting. Otherwise, bunkers don't seem to be realistically modeled.

[akd]

Sometimes you can get them to blast a bunker by setting the blast order just beyond the bunker, but sometimes they will just run around the bunker and die. If only the AI treated them as structures...

[Wodin]

I imagine this is going to be a bigger problem with Normandy and beyond.....maybe you should be able to attack and occupy a bunker from the rear? That way your pixeltroops can sneak around and enter the bunker spraying all occupants with lead...

[Erwin]

Bunkers are not a problem if one has LOS and range to use a heavy round or Javelin type missile.

However, the designer of Mud Marines was clever and placed bunkers in locations where one only has LOS from 10-20m away. Thus one has to use infantry weapons.

I am amazed/shocked that it appears that this challenge hasn't been discussed or playtested in the years that CMSF has been available.