When Is CM:Normandy Going To Be Available?

[Col Deadmarsh]

YankeeDog (and others) have it right. We could no more use the CMx1 map generation code in CM:SF than one could drive a Ferrari on wooden cart wheels. Plus...

And that would be just to have a crappy random map generator CMx1's generator was only so-so, yet the degree of complexity of the terrain it handled was magnitudes more simplistic.

Which is why I've said, for quite some time, that we will not have a random map generator in CMx2 *ever*. It's simply not worth the time investment. Plus, we would have to alter it for different settings and (at some point) overhaul it to handle a finer detailed mesh than even CMx2 has right now.

The way to go is the MegaTile concept. But only when it won't hamper the game's development and we have the time to make sure it's working right. There's a lot of technical challenges we haven't even begun to look at. Now is definitely not the time to start.

Setve

Thanks for explaining that. Looking forward to this Megatile thing...whatever that is.

[Thomm]

I had a great Red-vs-Red QB yesterday on one of the "rough" maps, tiny, at dusk, Syrian Republican Guard Armor, excellent quality, (expected tanks, but got BMP-2s two times in a row?!), meeting engagement, enemy had identical forces.

Barely achieved a minor victory! I could not believe my eyes, as I rushed the objective (gamey!) and waited for the enemy! I expected a slaughter! Yet they knocked out all my vehicles while preserving one of their own! My infantry won the day, but only barely so.

Best regards,

Thomm

PS: BFC, please consider separate switches for "soldier quality" and "equipment quality". If I try to choose crappy equipment I get green soldiers along with it, which is not what I want!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Thanks for explaining that. Looking forward to this Megatile thing...whatever that is.

Ever played X-COM: Enemy Unknown? Like that.

Never played Enemy Unknown? Beg, borrow or steal your way to a copy. It may be 16 years old, it's also the best game ever made.

Probably because it had megatiles! *hint*

[Clavicula_Nox]

Ever played X-COM: Enemy Unknown? Like that.

Never played Enemy Unknown? Beg, borrow or steal your way to a copy. It may be 16 years old, it's also the best game ever made.

Probably because it had megatiles! *hint*

I agree. Best game ever made. Megatile concept worked wonders.

[Wengart]

I believe Torchlight (Diablo style game) uses mega-tiles (in this case mini-tiles) to create a randomized dungeon, and it works fairly well. AFAIK Hellgate London also used this approach.

[gibsonm]

Thanks for explaining that. Looking forward to this Megatile thing...whatever that is.

The idea of a MegaTile goes something like this.

The usual CMx2 map has lots of 5m x 5m "tiles". Each one of these can have lots of characteristics.

Pros: Lots of flexibility

Cons: Takes lots of time to build even a small map.

The idea of a MegaTile is to group a collection of tiles into a "block" that represent "typical" pieces of ground. The MegaTile might be a collection of 5 x 5 "standard" CMx2 tiles.

Now in the QB environment the Map Editor now might makes its maps out of a collection of a bunch of MegaTiles.

So Map A might have a creek here and a farm there and a field there (each being MegaTiles and each MegaTile being a grouping of what 25 standard tiles - using the 5 x 5 example).

Map B might have the same creek here and a farm there and a field there, but their order / placement has changed, effectively making a new map.

So for a given CMx2 map you need less MegaTiles to build it compared to normal ones and its quicker but the downside is that the "bridge over the creek" MegaTile looks exactly the same in every map.

[Battlefront.com]

Slight correction to Gibsonm's post... 8x8 tiles, not 5x5 tiles, make up the basis of the game. Otherwise a spot on description

we know the MegaTile concept will work and work very well, even given the immensely complex terrain modeling we have in CM. It's worked for countless boardgames (not just wargames) and even some computer games. Which is why we're convinced this is a good thing to have for CM.

The problem is that it going to require a lot of coding to make it work acceptably, not to mention "perfectly". The big complicating factors are "connected" things like roads, water, walls, etc. You can't randomly assemble tiles and expect to have these things all lineup, unlike the handmade stuff in boardgames and the less detailed examples in earlier computer games. Again, the solutions to these problems are straight forward, but the coding is pretty intense.

Steve

[Lanzfeld]

Elevations would be a problem at the edges as well......I think.

[Sergei]

Elevations would be a problem at the edges as well......I think.

I think the better way would be to generate elevations separately from the megatiles. CMx2 elevation system is pretty good at creating smooth transitions between elevations. It's the player's responsibility then to use reasonable settings - in CMx1 map generator the combination of "steep hills" and "city" usually produced rather... "interesting" results. Like roads climbing vertical cliffs.

[MarkEzra]

The problem is that it going to require a lot of coding to make it work acceptably, not to mention "perfectly". The big complicating factors are "connected" things like roads, water, walls, etc. You can't randomly assemble tiles and expect to have these things all lineup, unlike the handmade stuff in boardgames and the less detailed examples in earlier computer games. Again, the solutions to these problems are straight forward, but the coding is pretty intense.

Steve

Meanwhile the price of bananas goes up!

[Lanzfeld]

LOL. I remember that Sergei! In fact, the first time I was ever able to take out a panther with a flame thrower was because of those hills. Great hiding places. No place for a tank.

[panzermartin]

Personally, I was more or less satisfied with the random map genarator in CMx1. Sometimes it produced some real gems. With the new finer mess its hard to go back of course but I eagerly await for the mega tile implementetion.

[Sergei]

I also generally liked it, although the maps did tend to be repetitive and it tended to produce little bits of this and that and then something else thrown here and there, producing unconvincing looking microterrain features instead of larger forests or fields or large cities as there'd usually be in real life. But it did nice random playfields that offered various tactical possibilities, so I guess that is what counts. I did love the "load premade map" QB option in CMBB and CMAK, however.

[InFireBaptize]

Ali-Baba rub your magic lamp and make this game the perfect game ever!!

[panzermartin]

What do you think I'm doing all day? 3 years of rubing and we finally have a decent CMSF game. This time I'll hand it back to Aladdin though, I think he has better technique.

[Michael Emrys]

Like roads climbing vertical cliffs.

And roads tilted so steeply from side to side that in reality vehicles would have had a hard time not slipping off of them...even in dry weather. Add mud or snow and...

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

I agree that the CMx1 generator was generally functional, but rare was the time that it produced a really great map. Usually "decent" was the best you could hope for compared to a good user made map. With CMx2 the gap between what a reasonable map generator and a user made map would be massive. That's because there's really no practical way to get CM to handle "micro terrain" (as defined on the previous page). It wasn't able to do that in CMx1 and the terrain resolution was smaller and far less rich. For CMx2 it's just an impossible task to code a generator that could make a believable map.

Our advice... buy shares of Chiquita (BTW... true story... I had an occasional summer job unloading tractor trailer loads of bananas. One of the most physically demanding jobs I've ever had. And this from a guy who thinks cutting down and hauling a couple dozen trees out of the forest is fun!)

Steve