Super Duty Pickups???

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Sorry ......this makes no sense to me. Tight infantry fire has nothing to do with it. Any redneck with a M-14 could knockout a pickup with 3 rounds.

Making pickups tougher for "game balance" doesnt sound like the right way either. The Uncons use these and they are what they are. Should we make Shermans tougher because they were on the "right" side?

Like I said, sorry Elmar, got to disagree here.

It's because you've got unrealistic expectations. Redneck in 3 shots? Under combat conditions that is just complete fantasy. And what bits is the redneck shooting? Engines are remarkable sturdy, they are after all big lumps of metal.

The greater allowance for damage isn't so bad for me because it trades the exagerated grouping of shots for greater resistance to them.

In the end it feels to me that most pickups stop working wen they need to, when looking at their time exposed to hostile fire. Whether this is achieved through lots of hits doing little damage or few hits doing more damage is of secondary importance to me.

[Lanzfeld]

The OP (me) made the thread because a pickup took 140 m240 rounds at 10 meters and didnt die. Just isnt going to happen under any conditions, combat or not.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I never comment on that because I never saw anything remotely like that. Extreme examples are not the best foundation for a useful discussion.

If I saw that happen more often, that'd be worrisome.

[Lanzfeld]

That is my point. So many people are seeing these examples that maybe a tweak is in order.

...but I do see your point. Maybe it is fine the way it is. It is just hard for my mind to fill in these blanks and I pride myself on having a vivid imagination!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I think there definitely is a case to be made that unarmed vehicles that are abandoned should be left alone unless ordered by the player. It's often very pointless to see units firing at them until they go *woosh*.

[Dietrich]

It's often very pointless to see units firing at them until they go *woosh*.

This happens with CAS too. Many times I've seen an Apache or a Cobra "waste" a Hellfire on a tank which it had already knocked out but which wasn't actually burning.

[dan/california]

I do recall someone who was there telling me that in GW1 they often shot a tank once with DU to kill it and again with heat to burn it and be sure stayed dead. It is a problem in real life too. And with no way to tell what has a fertilizer bomb in back...

[Alan8325]

I did a quick test using the editor to see what the toughness of the truck is vs an M240. The M240 team (veteran, +1 motivation) is in a building 440m away from the PK technical (veteran, +1 motivation), which is in front of a long wall. Escape is possible for the truck by going around the wall, but not easy. I did not input any orders for either side, so it was all tacAI. I ended the test after the truck was effectively out of action or escapes, so there is no more ammo expenditure against dismounted crew or anthing like that. The M240 team also did not fire their M4s at all so all damage came from the MG. After 10 trials, I saw the following results:

rounds expended; truck condition; casualties; end result

1.) 18; knocked out but no component damage; 0; 3 bail

2.) 50; engine red X, wheels yellow; 2 ; 1 bails

3.) 48; knocked out and burning, wheels light green; 2 yellow; 3 bail

4.) 50; wheels light green; 2 + 1 yellow; 1 bails

5.) 74; wheels yellow; 2; 1 bails

6.) 50; wheels yellow; 1; truck escapes during m240 reload

7.) 87; wheels orange; 2 + 1 yellow; 1 bails

8.) 9; knocked out but no component damage; 0; 3 bail

9.) 58; wheels light green; 1 + 1 yellow; truck escapes

10.) 79; wheels yellow; 3; truck has no occupants

[c3k]

The key statement being "...random shots into a truck...". If the distance to the truck is great enough, sure, dispersion would bring about a semi-random distribution of hits. But, as the OP stated, at 6 meters there is NOTHING random about where the shots impact. How many gunners would spray an empty truck in the windshield? To destroy a vehicle any soldier beyong basic training will fire at the engine.

Game breaking? No. In need of a tweak? Yes.

Ken

[flamingknives]

Data is not the plural of anecdote.

The tests indicate that a GPMG at 440m takes, on average, 65 shots to destroy a pickup. About 20 seconds at rapid rate.

[Mord]

The question then, maybe...is that are components modeled in the truck? Such as, where the engine is located? Or is it just an abstract random cycle the game goes through to decide how the truck is damaged when hit?

It's not gonna hurt the game or my immersion either way but I am curious now.

Mord.

[flamingknives]

Location of components within vehicles is modelled, roughly.

65 rounds avg at 400+m doesn't seem at odds with reality. Perhaps someone would like to run the test at close range?

[Mord]

Well, I ran one yesterday and got a side kill with about 30 rounds from an M240. It wasn't further than 40 meters away.

What got me posting in here was the ungodly amount of .50 rounds it took to the engine.

Mord.

[Alan8325]

I haven't played around much with the .50 cal snipers yet.

.50 cal MGs almost always make short work of pickups for me, but usually it just gets knocked out, which doesn't always say much about component damage. I would be interested to know what the formula for vehicle knockouts is. It must be some chance that is independent from the chance of component damage because you would think that a pickup truck is basically knocked out when its engine or wheels are disabled, but I usually see that it's knocked out before any component damage, or it gets its engine or wheels damaged but it's not "knocked out" and the crew remain onboard.

[acrashb]

Engines are remarkable sturdy, they are after all big lumps of metal.

Only in the sense of providing cover for a limited amount of time, not in the sense of shrugging off incoming rounds and still functioning. They aren't "big lumps of metal", they are as light as possible while doing the job of holding the parts together while channelling oil and water to where it's supposed to go, and are riddled with tunnels and voids as a result.

SS109 will punch a hole in an engine block, no problem. Maybe not all the way through, but all you need is a hole into an oil or water gallery or anything else and that's it.

Further, every part in the path of the bullet is essential to the operation of the vehicle - ignition, cooling lines, water pumps, belts, pulleys, fuel injectors / lines. There are no spare parts that the bullet can strike without repercussion.

[Lanzfeld]

Only in the sense of providing cover for a limited amount of time, not in the sense of shrugging off incoming rounds and still functioning. They aren't "big lumps of metal", they are as light as possible while doing the job of holding the parts together while channelling oil and water to where it's supposed to go, and are riddled with tunnels and voids as a result.

SS109 will punch a hole in an engine block, no problem. Maybe not all the way through, but all you need is a hole into an oil or water gallery or anything else and that's it.

Further, every part in the path of the bullet is essential to the operation of the vehicle - ignition, cooling lines, water pumps, belts, pulleys, fuel injectors / lines. There are no spare parts that the bullet can strike without repercussion.

Thank you thank you thank you!

I dont know why I couldnt say this at the start. Thank you.

[Panzerfest]

As a owner of a Toyota diesel I have to point out that they do not require the electrical system once running. As I found out a couple of weeks ago when my alternator failed 100km into the bush. My battery was drained by the time I hit pavement but it sure beat walking!

[c3k]

Yeah, the only electrical item needed on a modern diesel is the low pressure fuel pump to get the fuel from the tank to the mechanically driven high pressure pump. Now, if they'd only put the tank on the roof of the vehicle, you could even do away with that...

Ken

[YankeeDog]

....Further, every part in the path of the bullet is essential to the operation of the vehicle - ignition, cooling lines, water pumps, belts, pulleys, fuel injectors / lines. There are no spare parts that the bullet can strike without repercussion.

Actually, for many of the parts you mention, the engine and drivetrain can keep working for quite some time without them. As previously mentioned, a modern diesel engine doesn't need most of the electrics to keep running. Damage to the radiator and the rest of the coolant system (water pump, fan and fan belt system etc.) also won't stop the engine right away -- the engine will seize when it overheats, which could be just a minute or two, or quite a while, depending on how hard it's running. It would also probably take several minutes for a holed oil pan to completely drain, and the engine to seize. Many types of damage to the transmission system might prevent the vehicle from shifting to another gear, or cause a loss of transmission fluid (eventually leading to a seized transmission) but especially with a manual transmission, unless the gears are actually smashed or the drivetrain outright severed, damage to the transmission and/or drivetrain won't necessarily stop the vehicle immediately.

Of course, the engine can't run for any length of time without all these systems operational. But if you want to talk about what kind of hit will stop the vehicle cold, and prevent the vehicle from limping along for another couple hundred yards, you're actually looking at a fairly limited list of components (granted, one of which is the engine block, which is a fairly large target).

[Lethaface]

Dont forget that the starting engine also isn't necessary for the engine to keep running!

And how modern are these pickups?

Not sure if they use cast iron engine blocks but if so I guess a couple of 7,62 are considered 'normal' operation for these cars

By the way: I never had any problems with super-duty pick ups apart from my soldiers still shooting abandoned or knocked out pick ups. In those situations I usually order a 25+ mm cannon or grenade launcher to set it ablaze; those are great fire starters.