120MM Ammo

[Gen. J-sun]

I suppose this is more of a real life question, but why wasn't the Abrams 120mm armed at least a token supply of HE ammo, they've created some other anti-personnel ammo it seems odd they would skip the most basic form.

[gibsonm]

Well its designed primarily as an anti armoured weapons system to operate in a combined arms team (that team includes artillery).

When introduced to service it was meant to destroy Soviet MBTs and BMP at 2,500m+

There's only so much room in the turret and if you start spreading the natures between Anti Armour (APFSDS, HEAT), Anti Personnel (HE, Canister, APERS) and Smoke then you tend to find that there's never enough of the right one.

So normally you go with mostly APFSDS and HEAT (which has a secondary anti personnel / "HE like" role) with some Canister and Smoke.

If you need more HE then that's what the 155mm Paladins or CAS is for.

[Apocal]

HEAT works good enough is why.

[MikeyD]

120m HEAT is a 'dual purpose' round, basically a big HE round with a copper cone and standoff fuze. A normal HEAT doesn't require quite so much HE backing it up. T72 125mm HEAT round is the same. Does Abrams field smoke? I had heard the strict bustle round stowage made smoke rounds impossible as they'd have to be stored horizontally, which shifts the contents and causes the shell to become unbalanced in flight. Challenger 2's separated shells don't have the same stowage problem, so they get to carry smoke.

[tyrspawn]

When I was introduced to the HEAT round in ARMA by tank instructors in a realism gaming clan, it was explained to me that it was to be used against formations of infantry out in the open. I didn't learn until later while doing some research that it's technically an AT round. It works perfectly well in the HE/anti-infantry capacity, and unlike canister rounds has the same effective range as the SABOT. It has the perks of long range but the effect of HE, and it can also be used in dire situations as a decent (Although not excellent) AT round.

[gibsonm]

it was explained to me that it was to be used against formations of infantry out in the open.

Only if there is something nice and hard in the midst of the group for it to detonate on.

This sort of round with a stand off fuze doesn't work too well if you just shoot it at some open field due to the muzzle velocity etc. Often it will bury itself a fair way before it hits something hard enough to detonate.

This is where "proper" HE is better. Their variety of fuzing (VT, point detonate, delay, etc.) gives you much more flexibility in employment compared to HEAT.

But of course if HEAT is all you have ...

[MikeyD]

HEAT's anti-armor ability may have not been stressed because modern armor has largely rendered it ineffective. Even one of those wimpy ERA blocks on the T62MV may be enough to defeat it. We wouldn't be spending a fortune on fancy overflight-attack DU platter charge warheads if a simple HEAT round still could do the trick.

[Apocal]

Not every vehicle on the battlefield is a tank.

[MarkEzra]

Not every vehicle on the battlefield is a tank.

That's not the way it is on TV...are you sure?

[MikeyD]

Am I correct to believe that the U.S. & allies in Iraq and Afghanistan have not seen one active enemy tank in 6 1/2 years? I wouldn't be surprised to hear your average U.S., Canadian, Dutch, etc. tank wasn't bothering to carry more than two KE rounds in the field, if that. Also, I'm not sure what utility TOW 2B would have on a tankless battlefield.

[gibsonm]

"Armoured Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS or Sabot) will continue to have limited value in Afghanistan. This munition is most effective against other armoured vehicles, with which the Taliban are not equipped.

The Sabot round offers minimal breaching capability, and it actually threatens increased collateral damage because it does not explode on contact with its intended target. Tests conducted by the Danish Army on the DM 12 HEAT round have shown positive breaching effects, and modifications to the DM 33 APFSDS round have also increased the fragmentation of the round on impact with the target."

From

Major Trevor Cadieu, ‘Canadian Armour in Afghanistan’

Canadian Army Journal Vol. 10.4 (Winter 2008), 5-25

But that's the Real World, not necesarily the same as the CM:SF world

[Alan8325]

I think the Stryker MGS has a good ratio of rounds (10 HE, 6 HEAT, 2 APFSDS) for modern, asymmetric warfare, albeit low in overall quantity. The Abrams might do well to switch to some kind of ratio like this, especially with urban combat upgrades like the TUSK.

[dan/california]

To my knowledge there are few if any Abrams in Afghanistan. I am reasonably certain, based mostly on common sense, that Abrams engaged in COIN operations in Iraq are adjusting there ammo load outs. However anyone who actually knows would be absolutely forbidden to comment in this forum.

[gibsonm]

I think the Stryker MGS has a good ratio of rounds (10 HE, 6 HEAT, 2 APFSDS) for modern, asymmetric warfare, albeit low in overall quantity.

Well arguably that's (asymmetric warfare) what Stryker (and as a result MGS) is designed for.

[Flanker15]

I have said before that the TUSK M1's should have some of their loadout changed to HE just to give them a boost to anti-infantry. After you play with the Syrian tanks (which have HE) it's hard to go back to just HEAT which can't take out whole squads and destroy buildings with ease.

[gibsonm]

I have said before that the TUSK M1's should have some of their loadout changed to HE just to give them a boost to anti-infantry. After you play with the Syrian tanks (which have HE) it's hard to go back to just HEAT which can't take out whole squads and destroy buildings with ease.

Well sorry but the US doesn't carry a pure HE nature.

HEAT is as close as you get (regardless of your personal thoughts).

As far as I know no one makes a HE nature for the Rheinmetall gun.

[MikeGER]

As far as I know no one makes a HE nature for the Rheinmetall gun.

You can order it here ;-)

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=1053〈=2&pdb=1

(sorry link in German)

Regards

[flamingknives]

AIUI the Swedes have a HE round modified from a 120mm mortar shell for their Leopard 2s

[Damian90]

To my knowledge there are few if any Abrams in Afghanistan.

No M1 in A-stan right now, but US.Army is considering to send if needed M1's with T.U.S.K.-II.

I am reasonably certain, based mostly on common sense, that Abrams engaged in COIN operations in Iraq are adjusting there ammo load outs.

Yup, I know from lessons learned that in 2003 invasion most preffered rounds were M830 and M830A1, M829A2/A3 were used sometimes when enemy tanks were in line of sight, destructive effects after hits were reported. In COIN they take some M829A2/A3, some mix of M830 and M830A1 and some M1208. It was looking something like that, today tanks are used very rare in Iraq, most of them were shipped back to US some months ago.

[MikeyD]

I had not heard that Abrams wasn't in Afghanistan in force. Abrams' turbine sucks a lot of air. I wonder if the Himalayan elevations are keeping Abrams out. That, and the only way to get them into the country is via C5 Galaxy.

[Damian90]

No M1's in A-stan. This is fact. :-)

And about AGT-1500C performance in mountains, I think this is not so big problem, Choppers still are used in A-stan, and hey, they are powered by a turbine engine. ;-)

And hey, not only by C-5 but also C-17. ;-)

C-5 can carry two M1's in transport configuration (without ammo, fuel, probably side skirts), and one in ready to combat configuration, C-17 can carry one in combat ready configuration.