AGS-17 "Flame" mistakes

[Alex]

In the game army of Syria dispose the automatic grenade launchers of AGS-17 "Flame", these grenade launchers do not enter in the complement of subdivisions (unfortunately) and presented as separate platoons in a game.

IN GAME:

AGS-17 team is:

team size - 4 man

Armament of AGS-17 - 1, AK - 4

A group carries 63 or a 71 grenade of VOG-17 for AGS-17 (in the different groups) sometimes yet RPG-18 (not very much clear why they have him)

Exactness of firing from the grenade launcher of AGS-17 in a game is very low, even on small distances of 200-400m.

Not clearly where such amounts of grenades undertook from, in fact grenades are packed in ribbons for 10 things, ribbons unite for 3 and packed in a basket, 30 grenades turn out in a basket, but because of structural feature of grenade launcher AGS17, the first link is abandoned empty, and 29 grenades turn out in a 1 basket. And in a game does the incomprehensible amount of grenades turn out 63/75?

IN LIFE:

AGS-17

Mass of grenade launcher without a ribbon — 18 kg

Mass of grenade launcher with a ribbon on a machine-tool — 44,5 kg

Mass of the equipped ribbon on 29 shots — 14,5 kg

ammunition size of grenade launcher 3 box X 29 grenades (total 87)

AGS team (in Russia/soviet army)

3 men: commander / shooter, helper of shooter (1 ammo box), carrier of ammunitions (2 ammo box)

Firing from a grenade launcher is conducted turns for 3-5 shots (or 5-10), a grenade launcher is equipped an optical breech-sight multipleness of x2.5, that promotes exactness of firing to a great extent. In a game a grenade launcher often shoots for 1-2 grenades.

In the total in a game we have a AGS team a greater quantity in 4 men, against 3, but with less of ammunitions to AGS-17. It is although possible to suppose on logic, that command from four persons it: shooter, helper of shooter and two carry of live ammunitions. Then on logic the number of carry grenades must make 145 things.

Similarly in the game of AGS-17 enough not exact weapon, and at times with distance in the 300m command of fighters quite can not get in standing strayker (not a little target).

And in game AGS-17 has one graphic failing in a 3d model, basket with the grenades of black, while in reality he is always green.

It is desirable similarly to mark that in a game we have US pedestrian teams of grenade launcher of Mk19

Mk19 information:

Mass of grenade launcher is 35,3kg

Mass of tripod M3 is 20kg

Mass of basket with 32 grenades - 19kg

(information from Vikipedia)

At considerably greater mass of complete set a command from four marine infantrymen carries 144 grenades (4 baskets of 3 х 32 and 1 х 48).

Similarly Mk19 on the subjective feelings possesses more high exactness of firing, in spite of absence of optical breech-sight. Ballistics of 40mm grenades of Mk19 is better, than at 30mm AGS-17 certainly, bat at firing turns on distances to 600m it does not give a substantial difference.

In the total we have a non affective AGS team carrying little live ammunitions, and in addition badly shooting. And in principle absence of this grenade launcher in the state of battle subdivisions deprives the Syrian infantry of very serious fire possibilities.

It would be desirable similarly to put question, why by developers decisions not to enter AGS-17 in the complement of subdivisions of the Syrian army were accepted, while in the soviet army of AGS-17 widely widespread?

Some material:

http://rutube.ru/tracks/689580.html?v=041a335875dafbb1059fd40e83f1ee60 - video

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGS-17

[Thomm]

Good post!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Alan8325]

I've wondered myself why the AGS isn't a more widely used weapon on the Syrian side as I've found that the Mk19 is one of the most effective in-game weapons on the U.S. side. I haven't experimented with them much, but logically speaking they should be similar in effectiveness to the Mk19 because there shouldn't be many ways to make a technologically superior grenade launcher. Also, one would think that with smaller 30mm ammo an AGS team would carry more ammo than a Mk19 team.

[Thomm]

I found it to be a deadly weapon whereever I encountered it in CM:SF.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Yair Iny]

Alex, good post and very informative. Have you run any test scenarios to see if the accuracy difference is based on unit experience rather than weapon modelling? That would be an interesting comparison to make. Veteran or regular troops using both weapons on some sort of firing range.

[dan/california]

The weapon and ammo are both relatively expensive compared to a machine gun. It may be that the Syrians didn't buy many and don't practice enough.

[hcrof]

The AGS-17 is a frighteningly effective weapon. I just get annoyed that it doesn't come with any transport around the battlefield.

Why do scenario builders never include them? They make life very difficult for the BLUEFOR

[Alex]

Unfortunately to my mind the troops of Syria in principle are deprived heavy infantry weapon. That DshK (in russia/USSR his true a long ago replaced on NSV/KORD) like an AGS-17 is also included in the regular structure of battalions, most not bad weapon of infantry, actually there are not doubts, that in the real Syrian army a situation is similarly. And in a game the heavy weapon of infantry is mainly shown out for the state of subdivisions.

It is certainly possible to object, that neither DSHK nor AGS does not play a large role, when am for example BMP-2, and the more so BMP-3, with its powerful armament, it is eventual so, but foolishly to compare the armored machine to the infantry weapon. However much you twist the heavy carried weapon of infantry of AGS-17 and Dshk/NSV, it's a "long hand" of infantry for distance more then 600m, which perfectly works both in a defensive and in an attack.

2 Yair Iny

I not very much well own an editor, that to compare these grenade launchers on a line, but in separate battles compared, on results it created a theme.

In CMSF

There is one scenario he seems named: "whead scout" (somehow so) in him the Syrian reservists hold a defensive in the drying up river-bed against the reconnaissance company of Strayker, red have plenty of AGS-17. Who interestingly can make attempt play for red, it will become visible at once, that in the game of AGS a weapon is unavailing and absolutely not exact, at times the AGSteam can't get not a single grenade in a group from 3 standings together straykers from distance in 300m.

[Bigduke6]

As it happens I have seen former Soviet armies fire AGS-17. Using both "tape" and "snail magazine" for the ammo.

From what I have seen Alex is right, the standard "burst" seems to be about 5 rounds, not one or two. Which makes sense, if you're using the tape that makes two "bursts" and the crew knows you change the ribbon, simple, which is pretty much how the Russians do things.

As to accuracy it seems like a normal trained crew with AGS-17 ought to be able to hit a stationary vehicle at about 300 or even 400 meters without too much trouble. It would take a bit of practice but it's far from impossible, a good crew I know is supposed to but the entire "burst" into a window at that range.

That said, I think an AGS-17 crew would have to be pretty skillful to hit a moving vehicle at even half that distance, the shells are not bullets, it almost seems like the AGS-17 is sort of a hopped up pitching machine. A skilled crew I guess would be able to do it, but I would think your average crew would need 2-3 "bursts" to hit a moving target, and what with the need to change out the tapes, an inexperienced crew might well not have enough ammo to "range in" on a moving target.

I can't really comment on the relative simulation of the Russian AGS-17 vs. the NATO Mk19 in CMSF, except to remind every one of the following nomenclature: CMBB, and ZiS-3. I know what I suspect, grumble grumble.

Thanks to Alex on the info about the tapes, I didn't know you united three of them to fill the "snail magazine", stands to reason of course.

[bodkin]

To me the AGS-17 is one of the most feared weapons to encounter in a scenario and I even thought they maybe too accurate considering the way the weapon bounces considerably when fired if not affixed to a stable platform like a vehicle.

the leather jacket makes me think this guy is not the best trained operator but you can see how the lift affects accuracy.

Try the USMC scenario 'A River Runs Through it', I can't remember the name of the author but the Syrian grenade launchers are like snipers over a few hundred metres.

[Alex]

Exactness of conduct of fire of AGS-17 not the most important moment in this theme, initially I mentioned about it only by comparison to Mk19 and noticed that to firing from AGS-17 used bursts 3-4 and 5-10 grenades.

I agree in principle, that AGS-17 fine work on an infantry (does can they as that differently peg at a technique?), rather more important that AGS-17 has unjustified little live ammunitions and not included regularly in the structure of not a single battalion of Syrian army in a game.

[bodkin]

Exactness of conduct of fire of AGS-17 not the most important moment in this theme, initially I mentioned about it only by comparison to Mk19 and noticed that to firing from AGS-17 used bursts 3-4 and 5-10 grenades.

I agree in principle, that AGS-17 fine work on an infantry (does can they as that differently peg at a technique?), rather more important that AGS-17 has unjustified little live ammunitions and not included regularly in the structure of not a single subdivision of Syria in a game.

Sorry I thought you were questioning the 'in game' accuracy.

[Alex]

So I am, simply I think that it not the most important. There simply are examples of both very exact fire from AGS-17 in a game and vice versa cases, like described by me, wherever AGS got not a single shot in the group of straykers with 300m.

I am afraid that we now will begin a discussion here, about exactness of fire from AGS in a game and will forget about major things.

[Secondbrooks]

Alex: I don't think i'm 100% sure what your after: Do you mean that amount of AGL-17 available to Syrians units is generally low? And that AGL-17 should be part of pretty much every batallion there is.

Yeah. That is my impression of at least composition of Soviet mechaniced organization.

Btw. Is it true that AGL-17's main use was/is planned to be silencing opponent's ATGM-systems?

[Alex]

In soviet and Russian armies AGS-17 and NSV/KORD/Dshk is the weapon of battalion and is practically in all types of troops (mechanized infantry, airborne, marines and other) in separate companies or platoons of heavy weapons.

I do not know for what there was AGS-17 projected, but used as a weapon of support of infantry is in a fight.

[lomir]

IN GAME:

AGS-17 team is:

team size - 4 man

Armament of AGS-17 - 1, AK - 4

A group carries 63 or a 71 grenade of VOG-17 for AGS-17 (in the different groups) sometimes yet RPG-18 (not very much clear why they have him)

Exactness of firing from the grenade launcher of AGS-17 in a game is very low, even on small distances of 200-400m.

Not clearly where such amounts of grenades undertook from, in fact grenades are packed in ribbons for 10 things, ribbons unite for 3 and packed in a basket, 30 grenades turn out in a basket, but because of structural feature of grenade launcher AGS17, the first link is abandoned empty, and 29 grenades turn out in a 1 basket. And in a game does the incomprehensible amount of grenades turn out 63/75?

IN LIFE:

AGS-17

Mass of grenade launcher without a ribbon — 18 kg

Mass of grenade launcher with a ribbon on a machine-tool — 44,5 kg

Mass of the equipped ribbon on 29 shots — 14,5 kg

ammunition size of grenade launcher 3 box X 29 grenades (total 87)

AGS team (in Russia/soviet army)

3 men: commander / shooter, helper of shooter (1 ammo box), carrier of ammunitions (2 ammo box)

Hi Alex,

If you set the supply to Full, they'll have 87 x 30mm HE (VOG-17) grenades. If it's not set at Full for that scenario, it's supposed that they have made some shooting before and thus you get those strange numbers of ammo.

And in game AGS-17 has one graphic failing in a 3d model, basket with the grenades of black, while in reality he is always green.

The metal box containing the ammunition or the "snail" magazine (basket, but we've understood: I'm not an English native speaker, too) seems green to me in the game, not black. If you meant the tripod, there are photos in the Internet with the tripod painted in black, too. So, IMHO I don't think that's an error in the 3D model.

I was pretty boooored and I did some test. Here are the screenshots:

Yup, everything was going fine (29 grenades, reload, 29 grenades, reload) until the third and last magazine (see the last two screenshots). They had to reload twice again. It probably may be that they were fixing a weapons jam, so they had to take out the magazine. So, I'm not saying it's a bug.

About the rate of fire in the game... the team pictured started shooting well after the minute 29:00 against a moving target (a BTR coming at full speed from 1600 metres away), and they were making many 4-5 shot bursts, and just a few short ones (1-2). They spent all their ammo in 3 turns (reloads/jams included). And accuracy is very dependant of the skill of the shooter. Here, it was Veteran, so he performed well, I've got to say.

Cheers,

Lomir

P.S.- BTW, have you notice how well the Syrians dig? :-)))

[Battlefront.com]

I can't comment in detail at this moment, so here are some quick comments:

1. The availability of AGS-17 to Syrians is according to the information we received, through our sources, about what the Syrians actually have and how they organize them. There are many differences between Syrian and Soviet (or Russian) TO&E.

2. Accuracy depends on the Experience of the crew.

3. Accuracy against moving targets shouldn't be very good.

Steve

[Alex]

2 lomir

My mistake with ammunitions, simply I own an editor not very much.

A AGSteam in game has 3 valuable box with grenades, for 29 things in each.

Exactness of fire from AGS-17 strongly depends on skill level of the team.

Well with it understood, now that is not correctly:

Man in a command four, and they carry ammunitions so much, how many on the state a soviet AGSteam carries in 3 men. I think it is not logical, Syrians are necessary either to add 2 boxes with grenades or take out one man from a team.

I had because of, that box with grenades in the game of black color, and it is green in reality. I.e. for me it also green, but I set itself MOD, possibly this mistake cleaned in a version 1.20 (I have only demo 1.20)

2 Steve

1. Certainly Syrians not on 100% copy a soviet structure, but borrowing is enormous nevertheless, I would say on 70-80%. And certainly given about the army of Syria not on every site written, and it is much difficult to find them, what information on an army some European country.

But in a game and so are far not all troops of Syria reproduced with documentary exactness, in fact much it is simply thought of by "Battelfront", by analogy with a soviet army, in fact so? Those special forces and paratroopers in reality I think look quite differently.

Steve do not I understand something, if you talk that studied the organizational structure of the Syrian army, where in general for them AGS and DSHK?

I do not understand simply, in fact in the CMSF game subdivision presented not separate squad or platoons, but by companies and battalions, on it present separately in an editor platoons with AGS and DSHK do not give to understand where they must be in the structure of troops of Syrian.

in a game all mechanized infantry battalions have "companies of armament" , but they are empty, Appointment of this companies not clear to me, usually if I get it right in such companies take the heavy weapon of support, but it there is not present. Similarly there are "platoons of armament" in every mechanized infantry company, but they are armed exceptionally the machine guns of PKM, although in the soviet structure of subdivisions just the same platoons had on an armament not only PK, but DSHK/NSV and AGS-17 too.

2. Ok, understood

3. Ok, understood

[Alex]

If who interestingly, for a certificate, on reference there is description of structure of the mechanized subdivisions of USSR/Rus from the beginning of 70th.

Unfortunately only on Russian.

http://commi.narod.ru/mforce/r75.htm

[Alex]

2 Steve

And so?

[Battlefront.com]

We based the Syrian TO&E on information we should probably not have received It wasn't exactly classified, but it wasn't exactly supposed to be distributed outside of the "intelligence community". In other words, there is a reason why we have this information and the hobby websites don't.

Is the information we received 100% accurate? I am sure it is not. However, in 4 years we have not seen a single alternative source of low level Syrian organization. Soviet TO&E is not relevant because it is less exact than the information we received. Notice, though, that much of the Syrian organization is very close to Soviet. The major differences have to do with shortages of leaders and shortages of vehicles.

DShK's were specifically allocated to poorer quality, non-motorized forces. IIIRC they were allocated to Regiments in the form of a Battalion, but I could be mistaken there. Typically there would be divided up and put under the control of a Battalion HQ. Therefore, we divided the out as separate Platoons because a higher level formation of them was unnecessary. Similar story with the AGS.

The information we had suggested the primary reason DShK and AGLs were removed from the Mech/Armored units was to economize on BMP/BTRs. It also fits in with the Syrian's concept of heavy defense units holding up the enemy while highly mobile formations counter attacked. The allocation of slow, defensive weapons like DShK and AGL to static infantry units makes sense according to the Syrian thinking.

The Syrian Army is currently undergoing a very long, painful modernization program. The forces in CM:SF are a reflection of that.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I recalled having an AGS-17 related discussion awhile ago and linking a picture to it. After some rummaging i located the pict. Is the (barely seen) tripod green or black? Its hard to tell.

[Bigduke6]

I think black is correct.

http://tripatlas.com/videoplay/DwooeiK4mm4

[Battlefront.com]

Heh... I found that AGS-17 vid on YouTube earlier today when I was looking for some other weapon. Man does that thing jump!! Looks like after about three shots your chances of even getting close to a target are about zero. Notice they are very careful to not show much of the downrange action. There is, however, one spot where you can see a hit and then another one land about 50m to the rear and right of the first hit.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Looks like one AGS-17 in the vid did have green legs, but the test-firing weapon was black - so both are correct. Steve's right about barrel climb. Wow, the weapon was shimmying back and forth while firing too. It remind me of the old saying: 'Close' only counts playing horsehoes... or handgrenades.