Large Scale / Open Ground - maneuvering

[Raptor 2101]

Hello

I have a question about regular tactics to survive large scale/open ground - battles. Specially if the enemy is dug in trenches or in hide-outs and equipped with anti-tank-missiles. For example mission two of the British-module.

If i move the tanks to aggressive, i lose a bunch of them before even getting in touch with the enemy (or better in shooting range). But if i dismount to early i need to long to get the across distance. And even if i have enough time, there is the problem how to archive local odds with 3 to 1 ore more. Putting units/section to close together makes them a simple victim to mortar, arty or grenades.

Long story short: I have leak of information, how to archive such mission without a single victim on my side. I've read all available CM:SF document (like hcrof's pretty informative documents/posts). Did anyone have some sources to read or any tactics?

[DaveDash]

I find on these kinds of missions smoke or recon by fire/artillery are your friends.

[Combatintman]

As above - smoke is your friend here.

[Raptor 2101]

common guys, be a little more speechy. There are three kinds of smoking (Arty-smoke, Group, defensive smoke/smoke launcher), what kind did you use, when and how. Remember that this topic could be read by someone new to cm:sf

[George MC]

I think first off you have to accept you will lose units in such an attack. Trick is I guess to ensure that the enemy loses more, faster, than you do.

Key is having enough stuff in overwatch so if and when an enemy unit unmasks itself you can engage. Now this overwatch could be arty/mortar spotters or armoured units - key is that they can bring fire to bear quickly on the ID'd enemy unit.

Next thing is what do you move forward with? In open terrain you'll want to move armoured units across the ground fast from cover to cover (known as tactical bounds). As they move others should be overwatching - armour works well here due to it's heavier armour and firepower. You could have units periodically pop smoke as they go but this not only masks it masks the enemy as well. So key is there is no movement without fire or fire without movement.

I guess there are lot's of ways to use smoke - so one approach would be to smoke known enemy positions to allow armoured infantry units to fast move into cover that is close by, then have the infantry dismount and use your dismounts to close with the enemy. Again you would still have overwatch units ready to support your advance unit.

So there ya go - one recipe for attacking. I'm sure others will post their own

[MikeyD]

What's that old war movie cliche about a unit rotating which soldier gets to take point during a patrol? There was a reason for that. The point man was the guy who tended to get shot first. You can't strike the enemy until you know where he is and you can't know where he is til he opens fire. If you're lucky he'll fire and miss, but make sure you've got your FO and overwatch machineguns in place to take full advantage of him giving his position away. One big advantage human players have over the AI is we can area fire suspected positions. If Charles ever teaches the AI to area fire we're skewered.

[RadioactiveMan]

The mission you mentioned- 2nd in the British campaign, is a perfect example of this problem. Little to no cover and a long distance to cross. Actually there are some slight depressions along the edges of the map that you can use, but the scenario designer thoughtfully positioned heavy weapons to cover these routes

Anyway, my method for crossing a big open space like this (marine mission 2 is a similar type of scenario):

-Get as many of your vehicles into hull down position as far away as possible from the enemy. Some Syrian AT weapons are pretty poor at long range, but others are quite nasty. A larger distance will improve your survivability somewhat.

-hull down is important, but make sure they can see the target area you want to assault! Once you spot an enemy you will want to pour fire into them. Best to make sure your vehicles are positioned properly beforehand (this can be tricky)

-Dismount your infantry and advance; I would use a "quick" command here. How you advance is up to you. Typically I will advance with the squads in line, 50ish meters apart with the HQ elements 50ish meters back. MGs usually end up on the platoon flanks, and AT weapons hang back with the HQ.

-Make sure you get your artillery going ASAP on suspected positions. This is dependent on the wait time for your arty missions. The British can call in missions fairly quickly with the right units, which can be a big advantage. Ideally you want to be hitting suspected enemy targets before your infantry gets close to them.

-If (when) your infantry takes fire, I would switch them to an "assault" command, and continue the advance. Now the plan will start to unravel, and you have to adapt on the fly. Should all squads switch to "assault", or should some stay on "quick"? Should some squads go "fast" to a protective or advantageous position? Should the machine guns stop and set up, or advance with the platoon? When is smoke called for?

-Whatever you decide to do with your infantry, your overwatching units should be pouring fire on. If you don't see the little dead Syrian pixeltroopen, you don't know that you have killed them yet. This is particularly problematic for targeting trenches. Its hard to know when you have actually scored a kill. Force fire with your units, and if there are a lot of targets be sure to switch between them manually. Your "target" order causes a lot more shooting than the AI would typically do on its own. This creates for better suppression but burns through ammo faster as well. Be particularly careful using "target" with your tanks, as you may use up all your shells on infantry, and have nothing left for enemy tanks!

In the 2nd British mission I advanced my infantry as described, with their IFVs ~150 meters behind. This kept them close enough to provide good supportive fire. My more distant overwatch units focused on known enemy areas, while these closer IFVs provided rapid-response overwatch for emerging targets that might not be visible to the distant overwatchers. Also, when casualties occured these IFVs could race forward and drop smoke, allowing the squad to handle the casualty with some additional safety. Finally, having the IFVs close allowed for on the fly resupply of MG ammo, grenades, and mortar rounds. At the same time, keeping the IFVs back ~150 meters allowed the infantry to (hopefully) spot and eliminate Syrian RPGs before they could be a threat.

[RadioactiveMan]

Note that this technique is drastically different from Chainsaw's "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" Thread in the Strategy and Tactics forum. The strategy in that thread is great- but it works best when you have small distances to sprint across, and know better where the enemy is going to be. His technique relies heavily on suppressive fire on suspected/known enemy positions. Basically it is ideal for urban fights.

"Assaulting Fierce and Agile" is perfect for a scenario like mission 2 from the US Army Shock Force campaign- the one where you assault the airstrip and the special forces HQ. You have a large enough force and enough ammo that it is possible to literally suppress every building that could potentially be a threat to your assaulting units. Each house you clear becomes a new place from which to suppress new threats. Completing that mission is very much like picking apart a thorny puzzle. Painless, if you do it properly.

Anyway, what I trying to get across in my ramblings is that the "assaulting fierce and agile" tactic used in the 2nd mission of the US Army campaign is one end of the spectrum and Mission 2 from the British campaign is the opposite end of the spectrum. Most other missions fall somewhere in between the two extremes, or will utilize both techniques (like Operation Pooh from the Marine campaign).

[Apocal]

Mortars and artillery provide a fairly reasonable area suppressive effect if that is what you are looking for. Although certainly agreed that it's best to send a point element first, preferably one with enough armor to take a hit and survive, force the enemy to reveal his location and then beat on him with slightly more focused indirect fire.

[Dietrich]

One big advantage human players have over the AI is we can area fire suspected positions. If Charles ever teaches the AI to area fire we're skewered.

When the day comes that the AI learns to area fire, the number of four-letter words I utter under my breath while playing CMSF will increase a hundredfold. As it is, my muscles already tense spasmodicaly when the jackhammer rattle of an AKM on full-auto suddenly shatters the silence of an eeriely empty-seeming urban area as my men stalk among the buildings.

[hcrof]

I have just posted the same thing in the "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" thread. Is there any chance I could add this stuff to the community strategy guide?

It would need to be edited and have a couple of diagrams added but it is very useful information.

[Wengart]

On this particular mission, I captured the town along the edge of the map. Then used that area as a staging ground and gathered all 3 rifle platoons there.

I then prepared for a pre-planned barrage followed up by an armored assault.

- I used mortar smoke (off map) to cover the my advancing forces.

- one heavy artillery call in (anti-personnel) was fired on the enemy positions, that were located on my side of the dry lake bed (the positions were also along my route of advance).

- With a slight delay (so my units would arrive as the barrage was ending) I had the other H. artillery battery fire on the salt mine thing.

What actually happened:

My units drove across enemy position on our side of the lake bed (enemy troops were suppressed by anti-personnel artillery). Then made it to the mine, the infantry dismounted and attacked enemy positions under cover of smoke.

Total losses: 1 Warrior (crew survived), 4 infantrymen (friendly smoke artillery), 3 infantrymen (enemy fire), and one unlucky fellow who was hit by an AT round from a recoilless rifle.

[Smaragdadler]

CMSF:British - The Battle of at Tanf (UK Highland Games Campaign - Mission 2)

One company heads for at Tanf, parts of the rest of forces can be seen in background on their way to Obj CYRUS (at Tanf gravel pit).

Arty-observer and sniper team was placed in overwatch on the hill at Jabal at Tanf.

On the way to at Tanf. (I let one platoon assaulting on each side of the road, third platoon and vehicles over-watch and follow slowly.

Assault movement paths consist of many waypoint each just 15 - 20m apart. I try to place them in craters or rough terrain spots.

Main force embarks before the Dry Lake Bed (in the area where the point of arrow is on the map).

I don't use smoke. I let the gravel pits bomb by Tornado. That luckily took out the tank, they had there.

Syrian Reserve defenders. I just advance my squads slowly like described in attack mode with many way points.

HQ-mortar, IFVs and Scimitars pick out the Syrians with time.

The trench I clean with a short and heavy anti-personal arty attack after I had spotted enough '?'s to be sure

where the bulk of his forces was located in trench.

[Smaragdadler]

In the end there was some close in fighting inside the gravel pit.

But at this time i had pretty much the upper-hand and could move my IVF's in to make short work of the last resistance pockets.

The Syrians where giving up and I had a total victory.

I lost under 10 men when I remember right and 1 Scimitar to a AT-3 Sagger in the beginning, when I tried to scout at Tanf.

The pictures is all what I still have, no save games. I had made them for the screens-shot thread, not as tactical demonstration help, but maybe it helps the newbees a little bit to see spaces between troops.

[Smaragdadler]

A squad on each side of the road, not a whole platoon of course.

[Raptor 2101]

First sorry for my late answer, but i was extremely busy last week and unable to make a large post... So here i go.

I managed it last weekend to pass this mission without any lose an only 4 injured ones. But there was several trial and errors an some real harsh points.

I will post my tactic (attention spoiler...) and lets talk about, how to improve...

Ok lets start:

I divide the start-forces into two groups. One advancing an one spotting. The advancing group (A Platton) is placed at the beginning of the road while the spotting group get their position. This group consisting of ATGM, Sniper and spotter needs two rounds. After this, the advance started. A tank hiding in the wrack was an easy victim. The ATGM hiding in the ruins was harder, but luckily it don't hit a thing. After the first shot, my ATGM-Troop take them down (with a Jav). After this, the two sections dismounted and cleared the building at the first objective.

after the reinforcements arrive the A-Platton rejoin an start hunting down the fleeing troops. The B-Platton (green) takes their initial position. the ATGM-squad an the sniper joined the A-Platton. The spotter joined the HQ-squads and takes the observation point at Jabal at tanf.

This step was easy. While using the terrain, my troops was free to maneuver as i wish. So i prepare them for the main advance. The C-Platton joins the HQ-squads and the A-B Platoon takes a position behind a rise and dismount.

Now the battle becomes hot. While the A-B platton approaches the "riverside" enemy unit shows up. Despite the smoke was droped (black lines), my armored vehicles was unable to support them. At the same time the newly formed Group around the C-Platoon started their advance. This was the trickey part, cause i missed some ATGM Guy. It takes some trys until i manage tho get trough without some looses.

After a short time (i think 5 minutes) i managed to get my troops in the final advance position. The smoke disappears and the battle goes ugly... it takes 15 minutes fire fight until the A B platton reaches the "riverside". The C - platoon claimed their targets faster. After securing the trenches they start to clear the area. The first arti-strikes on Cyrus was ordered an on harsh attack on the trenches near cyrus (red line).

[Raptor 2101]

during this 15 minutes i mentioned arty rounds coming down, near my troops (A Platoon), cause CM:SF don't simulate drunken spotters or arty officers i realized that a enemy arty strike is on inbound. I ordered the APC to rejoin immediately with the A - Platoon and mount them. Luckily the enemy start at the same time to withdrawal. So the B-platoon easily shot one after each other. To get out of the dangerous area the A-platoon starts the advance (mounted) an cyrus, supported by heavy arty-fire.

The C-platoon entering trenches an takes a shooting-position in the rear of the Enemy. The first air-strikes takes place now.

Ok this was my final advance. The B-platoon remounted and advance to cyrus. Same time the A platoon advance to cyrus (driving with fast until reaching the trenches -> pop smoke -> dismount -> enter the trenches) . The following firefight was tactically uninteresting. Cause of the using of heavy arty fire in the rear, there was no real resistance.

Until i won the game i was unable to get the C-platoon an his vehicles back "in game". Only with the cleared view of the "finishing screen" i realized, that there was no further enemy group an i could have move them...

[tyrspawn]

Read this:

http://www.krauselabs.net/dump/ARMORSOP.pdf

I wrote that SOP for a realism gaming unit, it goes over in detail how to launch a successful attack with maneuver forces, a la the school of Heinz Guderian.

If you have any questions on how to apply it to CMSF, go ahead and ask, although almost all of it should translate directly. For example in the section "Culture of command" the Syrian forces can also not respond to quick attacks, it takes them longer to call in artillery and their chain of command is vulnerable to decapitation.

[tyrspawn]

Judging from the pics in this thread.. I guess I should get my hands on the expansion. I only have vanilla right now. Out of the three campaigns, which one is the most enjoyable? $35 seems way overpriced.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I have only just started the British campaign, but so far the Marines seem the most enjoyable.

[Dietrich]

Judging from the pics in this thread.. I guess I should get my hands on the expansion. I only have vanilla right now. Out of the three campaigns, which one is the most enjoyable? $35 seems way overpriced.

$35 may seem overpriced, but consider that by buying the base game you paid $45 for only about half of CMSF's overall content (not including the forthcoming NATO module).

With all due respect to the designers of the scenarios of the TF Thunder campaign, both the USMC campaign and the British campaign are quite well designed, with interesting maps and varied tactical challenges. In particular I dig the large, open maps of several scenarios in the British campaign.

[tyrspawn]

$35 may seem overpriced, but consider that by buying the base game you paid $45 for only about half of CMSF's overall content (not including the forthcoming NATO module).

With all due respect to the designers of the scenarios of the TF Thunder campaign, both the USMC campaign and the British campaign are quite well designed, with interesting maps and varied tactical challenges. In particular I dig the large, open maps of several scenarios in the British campaign.

Doesn't that just reinforce what I said? So I paid full amount and got half?

I actually paid $10 for CMSF off of GamersGate.

[Dietrich]

Doesn't that just reinforce what I said? So I paid full amount and got half?

I actually paid $10 for CMSF off of GamersGate.

*shrug* Well then, I can't help ya. I paid full price for base game and both modules.

[Fat Dave]

35 US dollars for a module is a steal in my books. The fact that such a complex and incredibly detailed military simulation such as CM:SF can be actually sold for less than a 100 bucks makes me very happy indeed

[Raptor 2101]

Read this:

http://www.krauselabs.net/dump/ARMORSOP.pdf

I wrote that SOP for a realism gaming unit, it goes over in detail how to launch a successful attack with maneuver forces, a la the school of Heinz Guderian.

If you have any questions on how to apply it to CMSF, go ahead and ask, although almost all of it should translate directly. For example in the section "Culture of command" the Syrian forces can also not respond to quick attacks, it takes them longer to call in artillery and their chain of command is vulnerable to decapitation.

pretty nice document, i thats what i'am looking for.

The modules are worth their 35$. I even paid more to get the printed manual (Marines only)