My pixel Brits get mowed down like butter.

[DaveDash]

Has anyone else noticed this?

I've noticed entire sections get mowed down like butter if caught in the open, on a rooftop, or assaulting a building, taking half casualties almost immediately (lots of brown and reds) and then the others panic and get cut down in in the ensuring chaos. I lost an entire crack experience section assaulting a building in the 1st mission in about 5-10 seconds.

Just to test, I went back and played some Marines and Army stuff, and it seems business as usual here. In similiar circumstances, they usually suffer a few yellows/reds, get pinned, but manage to return fire or flee without too many resulting casualties.

Now, my tactics in these cases are certainly to blame, but it does appear as if the Brits forgot to put on their body armour.

I'm not saying this is nessesarily a bad thing, it is definitely teaching me to be a lot more careful about MOUT.

Anyone else noticed this, or is it just me?

[Bahger]

In my limited experience so far, you need to treat each mission as recon, as the Brit units are smaller and pack less power. You can't charge the objective, you have to use infantry units as reconnaissance first, before committing to an attack. I find the Challengers very lethal; other vehicles have to be placed carefully in defilade or kept out of harm's way but within range of their weapons systems. I never move a vehicle before checking the targeting line for LOS as there is no point risking a brew-up unless you are either moving to better cover or within offensive range of a spotted target. Tactical maneuver is more significant, as is indirect fire; I am happy to see plentiful Harrier and/or arty/mortar support in the Brit missions, otherwise, as you say, they are very vulnerable.

Edit: Oh, and the Javelins are great force multipliers, just make sure they are given good FOVs, are not too exposed and that you remember to equip them from the vehicles or your Jav unit will have no Javs.

[DaveDash]

In my limited experience so far, you need to treat each mission as recon, as the Brit units are smaller and pack less power. You can't charge the objective, you have to use infantry units as reconnaissance first, before committing to an attack. I find the Challengers very lethal; other vehicles have to be placed carefully in defilade or kept out of harm's way but within range of their weapons systems. I never move a vehicle before checking the targeting line for LOS as there is no point risking a brew-up unless you are either moving to better cover or within offensive range of a spotted target. Tactical maneuver is more significant, as is indirect fire; I am happy to see plentiful Harrier and/or arty/mortar support in the Brit missions, otherwise, as you say, they are very vulnerable.

Edit: Oh, and the Javelins are great force multipliers, just make sure they are given good FOVs, are not too exposed and that you remember to equip them from the vehicles or your Jav unit will have no Javs.

Maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly.

Vehicles aside, the British infantry seem to die a lot faster in close quaters with more Red/Brown casualties than their U.S. counterparts, even before any firepower can come into play. It seems as if they've forgotten to put on their body armour.

If I make a mistake with the Brits, I tend to lose almost my entire squad. If I make a mistake with the Marines and U.S. Army, I'll lose half my squad at worst, sometimes they'll still overwhelm the Syrians. The additional numbers of the U.S. squads help, but see my example below.

I thought perhaps close range infantry lethality may been increased overall in 1.2, so I did some tests, but it appears as if the British are extremely squishy.

Example: In mission 1 I had a section of Brits on top of the roof of the "checkpoint" building. A Syrian squad in the nearby admin buildings below opened up on them, resulting in about 3 reds and 2 browns almost immediately from my British section. I have never had anything like that happen with the Marines or Army.

[Kat Johnston]

It seems to me that placing units on rooftops is now a death sentence, post 1.2, for anyone, any side (with implications for some older scenarios, perhaps). Well, if they try and fight from there, instead of just hiding, or taking the odd pot-shot with a rifle.

(edit) I haven't been finding British sections especially vulnerable? But then I tend to err on the side of caution.

[DaveDash]

It seems to me that placing units on rooftops is now a death sentence, post 1.2, for anyone, any side (with implications for some older scenarios, perhaps). Well, if they try and fight from there, instead of just hiding, or taking the odd pot-shot with a rifle.

This may be it.

It's not just rooftops, it appears as if maybe the default "cover" factor has been reduced. It may just be the additional numbers in U.S. squads help them fare better.

Personally I'm wondering how realistic this is, as I've always thought lethality of small arms in game was way overpowered anyway. From what I've seen of videos of Fallujah and reading books like "House to House", it can take a hell of a lot of small arms fire to even wound a guy without body armour. I recall one SAW gunner expended over 200 rounds to try and bring down an insurgent wearing captured U.S. body armour out in the open.

[Bulgaroktonos]

This may be it.

It's not just rooftops, it appears as if maybe the default "cover" factor has been reduced. It may just be the additional numbers in U.S. squads help them fare better.

Personally I'm wondering how realistic this is, as I've always thought lethality of small arms in game was way overpowered anyway. From what I've seen of videos of Fallujah and reading books like "House to House", it can take a hell of a lot of small arms fire to even wound a guy without body armour. I recall one SAW gunner expended over 200 rounds to try and bring down an insurgent wearing captured U.S. body armour out in the open.

That seems like a bizarrely high number. What kind of distances did this take place at?

[DaveDash]

That seems like a bizarrely high number. What kind of distances did this take place at?

MOUT distances. Fallujah. Im not sure of the exact amount.

I've read estimates from anywhere between 25,000 to 250,000 rounds expended for every insurgent killed. Yes a lot of that is surpression, but small arms is overmodelled in this game.

Dare I bring up the Black Hawk Down scenario that has been discussed before on these forums as an example.

I felt before it was OK, reasonable enough, but If cover has been reduced or smalls arms lethality has been increased, it only serves to detract from the game I feel. The game cannot model every bump in the game, tactical movement from soldiers, small rocks, etc.

[Apocal]

That seems like a bizarrely high number. What kind of distances did this take place at?

Putting it into context, the insurgent was carrying a battery (for initiating IEDs) IIRC, wear kevlar and a flak, so the SAW gunner poured down rounds well in excess of what he knew would kill him, just to be sure.

[DaveDash]

Putting it into context, the insurgent was carrying a battery (for initiating IEDs) IIRC, wear kevlar and a flak, so the SAW gunner poured down rounds well in excess of what he knew would kill him, just to be sure.

Hmm no, I don't recall him carrying a battery. These guys were approaching the U.S. position pretending to be U.S. soldiers from memory. And the soldiers reacted with surprise and just how many rounds it took to bring the guy down.

I don't have the book handy, so you're welcome to correct me if I am wrong. =)

[SlapHappy]

Perhaps he was carrying a DIE HARD battery?

Oh, guffaw, guffaw, I do crack myself up........

[DaveDash]

Perhaps he was carrying a DIE HARD battery?

Oh, guffaw, guffaw, I do crack myself up........

Don't give up your day job, man.

[hcrof]

I have started being more careful with British infantry too. It does seem to me that they are less well protected than the Americans but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[ScubaSam]

They seem to break a little easier, or at least get panicked easier. Maybe this is down to the smaller squad size and the fact they only have two leaders within the squad? US squads have 3 "leader" positions and Marines have 4. I'm assuming having their squad leader or team leaders taken out results in a hefty morale penalty for the squad, and my observations seem to suggest this.

Having said that though, when the enemy are sufficiently suppressed, the L85 and section is a lethal combination - I used a team of assault pioneers to blast their way through a building complex that held an entire platoon of Syrian SF - HQ, 2 squads and RPG. Using blast meant the syrians were all "cowering" when the lads entered, so it was pretty much a duck shoot. All Syrians Red or Brown for only one yellow out of an 8 man section

[Scipio]

I also have the impression that the brits are more likely get killed than wounded. I already wondered if the have only poor bodyprotection.

[Alan8325]

I just played the UK vs US scenario (Friendly Fires) as the Brits on Iron for the first time and only suffered a knocked out Challenger and Warrior. 4 KIA, 1 WIA, 2 missing, and I didn't use any save/reloads.

************Spoilers*****************

I would hardly call myself a tactical genius as I have a terrible save/reload habit and this was against the AI, but all it took was a couple of Javelin teams in a tree line and the Challengers in an overwatch position and all US vehicles got knocked out once coming into sight.

The infantry shootouts were long and not much damage got done due to both sides having body armor. It was pretty interesting to see how fast ammo got expended with both sides having body armor and 'veteran' or 'crack' experience because there was a whole lot of shooting and not a lot of suppression. I had to use artillery on enemy positions after the shooting started to get anybody to budge.

[DaveDash]

I also have the impression that the brits are more likely get killed than wounded. I already wondered if the have only poor bodyprotection.

Yes this is exactly my impression also.

[Apocal]

Hmm no, I don't recall him carrying a battery. These guys were approaching the U.S. position pretending to be U.S. soldiers from memory. And the soldiers reacted with surprise and just how many rounds it took to bring the guy down.

I don't have the book handy, so you're welcome to correct me if I am wrong. =)

All morning long, Stuckert has been babysitting his alleyway as the other guys pinch his ammo. He has yet to take a shot. Frustrated, he stayed in his sector of fire while the firefight raged around him.

Suddenly a moan pops into Stuckert's alleyway. He's wearing an American Kevlar helmet and body armor. Stuckert doesn't hesitate. He trains his gun on the man and rips off a long burst. He stays on the trigger and whipsaws the barrel back and forth, raking his target. Any human being, armored or not, simply cannot take thee absurd volume of lead spewing from Stuckert's SAW. The man disappears in the fusillade.

Stuckert is finally in the game. he turns to the other guys, smiles and nods, then reloads. He looks at Flannery and laughs.

...

Well, at least we know two hundred rounds from a SAW will negate Kevlar helmuts and body armor.

I was wrong about the battery part, but did remember right that the overkill was intentional. Earlier in the book, they mentioned an insurgent they called the Screamer who they hit with everything up to 40mm and who was somehow still alive, but he (amazingly enough) wasn't wearing armor of any kind.

[DaveDash]

All morning long, Stuckert has been babysitting his alleyway as the other guys pinch his ammo. He has yet to take a shot. Frustrated, he stayed in his sector of fire while the firefight raged around him.

Suddenly a moan pops into Stuckert's alleyway. He's wearing an American Kevlar helmet and body armor. Stuckert doesn't hesitate. He trains his gun on the man and rips off a long burst. He stays on the trigger and whipsaws the barrel back and forth, raking his target. Any human being, armored or not, simply cannot take thee absurd volume of lead spewing from Stuckert's SAW. The man disappears in the fusillade.

Stuckert is finally in the game. he turns to the other guys, smiles and nods, then reloads. He looks at Flannery and laughs.

...

Well, at least we know two hundred rounds from a SAW will negate Kevlar helmuts and body armor.

I was wrong about the battery part, but did remember right that the overkill was intentional. Earlier in the book, they mentioned an insurgent they called the Screamer who they hit with everything up to 40mm and who was somehow still alive, but he (amazingly enough) wasn't wearing armor of any kind.

Yeah, I think this helps to just validate my point that the lethality of small arms in the game is perhaps high. I understand that for time limits sake it was this way (although we now have 4 hours), but if it's been increased, I'm not sure if this is a step forwards.

[Chops]

I have noticed what DaveDash has mentioned regarding high WIA and KIA for British fireteams - sections. I have seen this happen with British units in buildings taking fire from Red Forces in other buildings which seems unusual since they at least have some protection, and are not out in the open. I have only observed this in a small sample of battles and situations, so it will require further observation and testing.

[Sivodsi]

Regarding rooftops: in a demo scenario I played the syrians ambushing a stryker force.

I had a squad of Syrians on the rooftop, on 'hide', and they were spotted by a strker at 120m, and wiped out to a man.

It may be realistic for them to be wiped out to a man, but being spotted while 'hiding' at 120m strains credibility.

IMHO, naturally!

[Fat Dave]

Hi Sivodsi,

I had a similar experience to yours. Hidden red sniper teams, on a roof with a low wall around it - wiped out from range. I tried to put this down to IR optics from somewhere...but still, it felt a little 'weird'. There were changes done to the way spotting worked on rooftops...I just hope it didn't take it too far. I am sure there will be others seeing similar things. Will be interesting to keep an eye on this

David

[Flanker15]

Anyone here know what butter getting mowed down invovles?

[YankeeDog]

Anyone here know what butter getting mowed down invovles?

I've never mowed butter myself, but I'll take a SWAG that the first step is to mix a couple of metaphors together.

[ASL Veteran]

Anyone here know what butter getting mowed down invovles?

I've been biting my lip ever since this thread was started because I didn't want it to come out the wrong way . This is exhibit A in showing that metaphor mixing is bad for your health . Mowed down like grass ... sure. bullets go through my Brits like a hot knife through butter ... yeah. Mowed down like butter? That's just not working for me .

However, if you set several thousand sticks of butter standing on end in a field you could theoretically mow them with a mower so maybe that's what was meant .

[DaveDash]

Lol.

Yes it should be lke a hot knife through butter, or "mowed" down like grass, but I think everyone gets the point.