AlExal Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I'll be frank. They are awuful. They can't spot a shooting fireteam at the building at 200mtrs away. They can't shoot down a man 400m away. It takes them about 5 minutes of constant shooting to shoot a man 200mtrs away. All these is about daylight combat conditions. Do u have an idea how these blind puppies would behave at night? And it is impossible for them to shoot a man in the window. What's the use of such snipers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eddie- Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Got to agree. The snipers (L115A3 and L96A1) are both utterly useless. My snipers were shooting at a recoilless rifle team 200m away. They weren't cowering or hiding, just lying about. It took 13 shots before one round connected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos49 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 u right, in the demo in brit game, the sniper in the house with smach wall the can not spot him even when he fire on my car. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Let's not forget the battle starts at dawn. BFC gives long-range weapons a big sighting hit in low light conditions. Now if, after the sun's come up, you can get your sniper into that upper story police compound to shoot down on the enemy in the 'back yard' you'll be golden. Hmmm... I've never tried to get my Blue snipers into that mosque tower. Something to ponder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 First sniper shot should have a high probability of hitting but regardless of actually hitting or not it should suppress the target. If a sniper was firing at me, I'd get behind cover and fast. Once suppressed, these guys probably have their faces in the dirt trying to dig in with their chinstraps. Further sniper shots may well miss. In fact, they may be intended to miss. The sniper may just be keeping the target unit's heads down. When I say "intended to miss", I mean only in the sense that the sniper doesn't have a clear shot so continues to suppress. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos49 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 when the are 2 guys one with a scoped rifle and the other with binoculars, even a green sniper sould spot a sniper in a house with no walls. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Yup, what Adam said re: Quality. The one sniper I took note of in the demo was regular experience, so I wouldn't expect too much of the "One Shot, One Kill" hype. Didn't see them do quite as badly as described in the OP. Unspectacular performance, I'd say. Not bad, not good. I would expect a bit better spotting though. These are people who are wholly geared to looking for potential targets and would, I expect, do somewhat better then their colleagues. PS @Adam Unit quality effects ballistics? That's highly surprising news to me. Where'd you get that impression from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 when the are 2 guys one with a scoped rifle and the other with binoculars, even a green sniper sould spot a sniper in a house with no walls. 1) How far is the house? 2) How often is the sniper in it shooting? 3) What quality is the sniper that you are trying to spot? 4) Is the wall totally missing or broken (i.e. a big hole with lots of irregular edges which would be perfect for hiding behind) 5) What else might they be looking at? 6) What evidence do you have that any soldier "should" spot such a target? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlExal Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 Snipers in demo, brits mission are veterans) I understand that sniper's task is not only to kill, but sometimes to keep an enemy down. But in most cases those who the sniper fires at don't give a damn that they are firing at by a sniper) After several minutes of such shooting some opforce fireteam or mg spots the sniperteam and voila, heavy casualties. And I'm not speaking only about those in the brits module. US snipers are also nogo. I once tried to shoot an rpg team from control tower. They were running across airfield. Well, the made it) I understand that this is a game. That there are a lot of conventionalities. But these is an wargame. Not some "world of magic statagy" And that means that every unit should have his real world model and fulfill his functions in the most possible way. That is why "in-game" challenger looks like "real world" challenger and not like some star of death. And that is why snipers should fulfill functions of "real world sniper". Of course they should have strong and weak points not to be some uberunit. For example they should be total losers in closequartes combat where usm fireteam rules the universe. In one of the patches accuracy of snipers was slightly increased. Now I think it was too little. 6) What evidence do you have that any soldier "should" spot such a target? Because that "target" was firing at the sniper. That opforce fireteam was in the building so it was firing throught the windows. It was located by the team of spotters who were 2 mtrs away from snipers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf66 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 They were running across airfield. Well, the made it) In CMX1 they would have been pinned/supressed almost instantly and had quickly begun crawling back to their starting point ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos49 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 1) How far is the house? it only 270m away 2) How often is the sniper in it shooting? start shooting as soon he se my jackal and until all men are dead. 3) What quality is the sniper that you are trying to spot? dont no 4) Is the wall totally missing or broken.? a big hole with lots of irregular edges 5) What else might they be looking at? target arc at the house only. 6) What evidence do you have that any soldier "should" spot such a target?veterans sniper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 It does seem snipers in CM1 were better (2 hits or 3 hits out of five). I tried playing with just the sniper teams moving them around to try to spot and take out enemy units, it just can't be done. More often than not they are spotted first and just about any enemy team will kill them once in a shootout, no matter what the range. Snipers should be a lot harder to spot and receive a spotting bonus! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 OK, 270m is a fair way, nearly out of range for the average soldier on his own. Plus the experience of the unit that you are trying to spot makes a pretty big difference. Regarding point 6, a green sniper should spot the target because your man is a veteran sniper? That doesn't make much sense to me. I was hoping for something that said a different unit was able to spot the target or a real-world study showed that it was possible to spot a target in similar situations. Before we start jumping up and down, we need more than one occurrence so it can be proven to be systematic. This situation needs to be independently verifiable. Once that is done it needs to be proven that it is inconsistent with either the rest of the game or real life. Because CM runs on fuzzy logic, random chance can have an effect that makes you see occasional problems that aren't really a function of the code, just bad luck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 You're describing recieving incoming sniper fire from a rubbled building at dawn. Its only in Chuck Norris movies that snipers conveniently silhouette themselves in a doorway. If you, the player, have discerned that you're getting incoming from X location feel free to lay down as much suppressive fire as you like without first spotting the unit. The game doesn't model a response to hearing the sound of a shot from a building's direction. I'm reminded of a scene from the movie "Full Metal Jacket". A Marine unit (in Hue?) recieves incoming sniper fire and EVERYBODY opens up on an open window. No resulting enemy casualty that we can tell, but no return fire from that window either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos49 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 had u play around with the demo ? take a look at it. will try to see if other units will se the sniper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Snipers should be a lot harder to spot and receive a spotting bonus! Spotting bonus, yes. After they have been stationary for some time. I don't understand why they should be harder to spot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Spotting bonus, yes. After they have been stationary for some time. I don't understand why they should be harder to spot. Because they've been trained to be harder to spot, including extensive work on concealment and concealed movement. The British ones anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Because they've been trained to be harder to spot, including extensive work on concealment and concealed movement. The British ones anyway. IMO, almost all of this would be in the hands of the player using the terrain correctly and using an appropriate movement type. I could possibly see a small bonus once they get settled into some terrain types. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 If the enemy sees a sniper sneaking/moving/etc. to get into position, then he's not a very good one. There's a lot more then just shooting that goes into being a sniper. The only way some one should spot a sniper is after he's been shooting from the same position far too long. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 If the enemy sees a sniper sneaking/moving/etc. to get into position, then he's not a very good one. There's a lot more then just shooting that goes into being a sniper. The only way some one should spot a sniper is after he's been shooting from the same position far too long. I really disagree with the notion that snipers should receive a blanket stealth bonus (except for sound contacts which as yet do not exist). The responsibility lies with the player to select a covered and concealed route and use the appropriate movement orders, such as Crawl when cover is low. If the snipers in this game were equipped with ghillie suits, I'd be singing a different tune; but they aren't. What I could see sniper specialists having: - Reduced sound contact (if not firing, and whenever this happens to enter the game again). - After a short time being stationary, a concealment bonus in such terrain as buildings and wooded areas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 This brings up the old topic of whether the game's got 'snipers' or 'sharpshooters' in it. I assume the guy with the L96A1 who's a member of a Support Troop is a 'shartshooter', while the guy with a L115A3 and accompanying spotter is a 'sniper'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The best Reg sniper I've had was a guy who wiped out a 5 man HQ unit at ~270m. The first shot missed - all the rest hit. Dead in <3 mins. In CM1 a sniper "shot" was supposed to represent 5-10 rounds IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I'd like to see the snipers have a hiding and accuracy bonuses. Otherwise, why bother having a sniper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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