US ARmy and the XM25

[Pandur]

i didnt posted on the general discussion for i dont know how long, however this picture made me laugh so hard, i couldnt resist. it is even more ugly then the OICW, wich at least had this late 80ies early 90ies look.

anyways, this remembers me on something a friend of mine learned a few month ago at university. hes studying architecture(they guys wich design houses) and they learned about the relation of form(shape,layout) and function. means the most perfect design is a design where the form supports the function and the other way round. now in military designs form and function are mostly "one". like a sloped armor is not sloped for the looks of it, but becouse it supports a function.

now when looked at it that way, you can accept that it is a just plain ugly looking pice of gear, but if it needs to look that way it "needs" to becouse to make it more "stylie" or looking cool is a waste of time, money, weight and measurements of the weapon.

now haveing said that, i am still puzzled about the size of the weapon. as far as i know all this started with the OICW basicly. OICW was deemed to cumbersome, to big and ugly. they decided to split the weapon in parts. XM-8 series was it called. it looks as if these weapons really exist in few numbers and are at least build as few prototypes.

they split the granade launcher component and the rifle component into the XM-8 series. sure there is a carabine version and some support fire version but just the fact they did split this thing is the interessting part.

what happened after this, i have no idea. it seems the XM-8 didnt make the cut. it looked quiet capable though. the 20mm granade launcher weapon was considerable smaler then this pice on the picture.

and today in this thread i see them come up with the XM-25, a weapon wich is as big as the OICW but can do less!? it sports teh same size but totaly lacks the "rifle" component...that is something i cant understand. why that, wouldnt it be better to reinvent the OICW or fix it or somefink instead of designeing a new huge weapon similar to a weapon they had nearly 15 to 20 years ago, and then they dont even make progress in shrinking it or so.

i cant help myself but this thing must have some additional capabilety. maybe it can cook field rations or you got a chilled compartment for one or two coke cans in the stock/butt of the weapon, in case you get thirsty hauling this around!?

[gunnergoz]

I suspect there are a number of situations that crop up in places like Iraq or Afghanistan where such a weapon would be just the right fit. The question is, will the troops find it worth the trouble to lug it and its ammo around until it will be useful? And will it stand up to abuse in the field while it waits for its moment of glory?

The Army and Marines have gotten much smarter of late about field-testing things and issuing them quickly when they work. I hope this is the case with the XM25. Unless, of course, the contractor for it has a lot of lobbying juice in DC...Its funny how many white elephants have managed to survive with the right lobbying going on behind them.

[Other Means]

I think it could have great utility. MG's keeping peoples head down and an airburst weapon to get when they're there.

If you're facing one, how do you take cover?

That's assuming it works of course.

[dieseltaylor]

The advantages in keeping demonstrators cowed will of course become more attractive if there appears to be non-lethal solutions. I predict first non-combat use will be a G8 summit. : )

[Affentitten]

precise delivery of tear gas, flash-bangs exploded over the heads of crowds to get them to disperse, dispersal of marking ink to mark rioters for later arrest, etc.

All do-able with even a basic M-79 or HK-69. When it's a crowd and you want to gas them, you don't exactly need a sniper rifle.

[gunnergoz]

Yeah, this thing is too damn expensive and complex to be used for simple crowd control...it's going to be used by guys on the pointy end of the spear, hopefully to their satisfaction. I'm a bit curious to see how it works in foul weather and extreme cold, though. A lot of hi-tech stuff fails in wet tropical and really frigid environments. Not to mention how atmospherics might affect the laser rangefinding.

[JonS]

A lot of hi-tech stuff fails in wet tropical and really frigid environments.

G8 summits don't traditionally occur in the Arctic or the jungle.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I'm still unsure what this system does that one would be unable to do if you applied the same tech to a M-320 or other 40mm based system.

To me his is yet another case of "useful but do you really want to carry it around?"

[dieseltaylor]

Affy

Neither has the ability to pick which bunch of journos you want to hit or miss : ) Finesse is useful in crowd control.

The US's new grenade launcher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M320

[Soddball]

It's going to be a bugger to use.

Take a sight, get a range, offset for range (presumably automatic), offset for airburst (mostly vertical, but a horizontal offset would be handy to get someone just around a corner), allow for windage...

Sounds like the military's going to have to recruit golfers rather than soldiers.

[flamingknives]

Or marksmen. Fancy that.

[YankeeDog]

Sounds like the military's going to have to recruit golfers rather than soldiers.

Actually, it's the current 40mm rifle grenade systems that really require golfer-like skills in order to "get the ball on the green;" there's nothing more than iron sights to help the grenadier target a very low-velocity, high-arc shot. Apparently, some guys get very good at it, but I imagine it does take considerable practice, and it must be a bitch to aim in any kind of crosswind.

The XM25 takes most of the dead reckoning out the equation. But I agree with what seems to be the common sentiment here -- while it sounds like it is capable of performing some pretty cool tricks on the firing range, I'm not convinced the complexity of the XM25 system is really worth it on the battlefield. Only way we'll know for sure is if it gets a deployment trial in Afghanistan and there's feedback from troops using it in real combat.

[Other Means]

Sounds like the military's going to have to recruit golfers rather than soldiers.

Welll....they are placing them in mortal danger *shrug*.

[Sixxkiller]

Can you imagine lugging this thing around in a vertical environment? Looks so uncomfortable at best.

[General Jack Ripper]

From Wikipedia

"Upon cancellation in 2004, it was split into three related programs. OICW Increment One is a program to develop a family of light kinetic energy weapons, OICW Increment Two is a program to develop the airburst grenade launcher as a standalone component, and OICW Increment Three will be a program to re-integrate the two components. The XM8 was developed in an attempt to meet Increment One requirements. Instead a new program known as Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) was begun. Meanwhile, the XM25 25x40mm airburst launcher began development to meet the Increment Two requirements. Increment Three will not be initiated until after One and Two are completed."

Beating a dead horse to make a useless weapon, IMO. What grunt in his right mind is going to want to lug this around along with the rest of his gear? Hitting a difficult target is why the Marines put an ACOG on every single rifle, correct?

[akd]

What grunt wants to lug around a SAW or M-240? ACOG won't do squat for targets behind cover.

[Stalins Organ]

Because I didn't think anyone would pointlessly dredge some POS that last saw service on the Ark.

But go you. Well done for displaying the same command of minutiae and relevance as Mr Kettler.

What - the RAW?

given that it was developed 1988-89 (although admitedly first proposed a decade earlier) - completing NDI testing in 1989 and the programme not being cancelled until 2001 calling it from the Ark seems a bit unreasonable.