Opened Case; Fiddled Around Inside; help?

[Panzer Leader]

Okay, ongoing problem, let me re-cap:

A few graphics and other problems, errors, freaky desktop resolution changes, etc.

Big Problem: CM only runs for a short while before crashinf and/or powered down system.

Specs:

Almost new Athlon 1.4 with AK31 MB

256 DDR RAM

TNT2 Riva 32MB G-Card

Hypothesis: Running Sysoft (system tool) I notice that Temp is normally around 45'C/115'F. While playing CM the temp rises until it peaks at around 140' at which point my BIOS is set to power down. I think it is a heat problem.

I changed the BIOS to shut down at 150'F. What is the optimum temp for this processor? What is the max? I am afraid to heat it up and do damage.

I appear to have a large Aluminum heatsink installed over the Processor, with a black fan over that. I also have a fan in the front of the case, drawing air in, a fan at the rear in the power supply blowing out. There is also a tiny fan on what appears to be the Via Chipset(?) and another on the underside of the TNT2 card.

Is my computer running hot? Could this cause the above-mentioned problems? Why is it hot and how can I cool it? Is this even the problem or might I be barking up the wrong tree?

Any advice or reccomendations welcomed.

[WWB]

Well, one of the best ways to test and see if the machine is running hot is to run it with the case off for a while. That will also let you see if any of the fans are not working and/or cut out, etc.

A more permanant solution, should it appear to be heat, would be to add a case fan, exactly where and how depends on the layout of the case. A fan in the wrong place, or going in the wrong direction, can leave you worse off than you already are.

WWB

[Gyrene]

150F? Jesus H, that's hot!

You need to get some fans going in there.

Gyrene

[Hedgehog]

I am having the same problem too. I do not have thermal sensors but when I put my hand near the powersupply outtake fan man is it hot! When I run it with the case off I don't have any more error/shutdown restart problems. I have added a case fan and a slot blower. It has helped. My power supply is right above the chips and video card. I'm looking into cooling solutions so I can play CM on my new machine. I will post if I find something better than what I have. (what I need is a miniheat pump like we use in serverrooms if the AC cuts out.)

[BeWary]

The maximum safe temp for an Athlon Thunderbird chip is about 90 deg Celcius, which is around 200 deg Farenheit. This information can be found on the AMD website (www.amd.com) You could increase the temp limit before your machine shuts down, or better, install a case fan as noted above.

The power supply sometimes only has enough fan power to get rid of its own heat and not any of the heat generated by the rest of the system. Also, some power supply fans don't have slots in them to suck in heat from the case. In that case, an extra fan blowing air out of the rear of the case is the best solution. Ideally, this fan can be positioned near the processor. Unfortunately, some name-brand system makers design their cases such that it's impossible to add a case fan. I hope that's not your case.

BeWary

[Lars]

Doesn't sound like heat is causing the problem.

But take the case cover off and see if that helps. Actually, I've yet to even put mine on.

Also, check to be sure you are running the latest graphics drivers or go back to the reference drivers.

If you're running DirectX8.0a that might be conflicting with old graphics drivers.

At least that was my problem anyway.

Oh, is the fan even running on the graphics card?

[offtaskagain]

You could try watercooling your CPU

[Panzer Leader]

Case was off for a while last night and all fans were working. I don't know it might have made a marginal difference, but I have kids so open case is not an option.

Also, where would I put another fan? I have a case fan pulling in the front, the powere supply pushing out the back, a processor fan, a G-Card fan and fan over the Via thingy.

One thing I noticed: the G-Card fan was plugged into the card itself (and was working) but there was a plug next to it on the board itself -- would that make a difference?

And another thing: if the BIOS is set to shut off at 140'F and it was getting hotter than that, wouldn't that mean it IS a heatr problem?

It might not be the only problem though...

[Schrullenhaft]

Most of the fans for video card heatsinks only have two leads and a different connector than most motherboard power-supply fan connections. So as long as your video card fan is spinning there is no need to connect it to something else.

A very good quality heatsink/fan combo can lower your CPU's temperature. I've typically seen 105°F to 120°F as the typical temperature for very well cooled Thunderbirds. What heatsink/fan combo do you have installed on your CPU and is there any thermal grease or contact adhesive between the heatsink and the CPU core ?

As stated above the Athlon's above 1.1Ghz max out at a temperature of 95°C (203°F). Getting close to this temperature is hazardous and you'll often lock up. Also the heat sensors on many motherboards are often not very accurate since the calibration of the actual device to the sensor chip and the BIOS's interpretation of what those voltage conversions mean in actual temperature can vary quite a bit. Have you increased the shutdown temperature to 150°F to see if your problems go away ?

As also mentioned above, depending on the mount points on your particular case you may be able to mount a fan (60cm ?) behind and above the CPU on the rear of the case (an empty 'exhaust' port). Having this fan blow OUT air (usually) should help draw heat out. How much of a difference this will make is hard to tell, maybe a few degrees.

I would check with whoever assembled your system and find out how they mounted the heatsink to the CPU. Maybe a more appropriate mounting will reduce your temperatures.

[BeWary]

Yes, it's a heat problem if you have it set up to shut off at a certain temp. If you have a name-brand case, you may not be able to add an extra fan, as I mentioned. If you can add one, you should see a round area on the rear of the case with a lot of holes in it. This will be where you'd put the extra fan. It should be about 2-3 inches in diameter. If you don't have anything like this, then your only option is to increase the temp limit. You should be able to safely make the limit 180-190 degrees Fahrenheit.

On another note, I've read that leaving the case open can actually hinder a system's ability to cool down properly. It makes sense if the fans are arranged correctly. With the case off, the airflow is not directed, but with it on, it can be properly directed over hotspots like the CPU.

Don't worry about where the video card fan is plugged in. If you haven't changed it, then leave it where it is. It's normal for them to be plugged into the card itself now-a-days.

BeWary

[Tim S]

My Athlon system was running very warm as well. About 2 months ago I went from Intel to AMD and I could tell right away there was a massive heat difference in side the case. I'm running an Athon TB 1.2 on an Abit KT7E board with a case fan, a video card fan, 2 power supply fans, a chipset fan and the heatsink fan over the chip itself, which is pretty much what I had with the Pentium. To cool the TBird down, which I'm sure is your problem, I purchased the best (see expensive!) solid copper heatsink I could find. I also added a very good, but not too loud, fan to go on top. I leave the far side (away from me) of my case open and my temps dropped an average of 10C to around 48C under load.

[Soddball]

My system runs hot so I leave the case sides off. However, some of the people I've built PC's for don't have that option, so my solution has been twofold.

Firstly, I buy large tower cases. They have plenty of room to let air circulate and the thick ribbon cables don't restrict air flow as much.

Secondly, I fit case fans (as many as the board and case will take, usually three) and a silver-coated copper heatsink. They're expensive (£25 ($40?)) but worth the investment.

[WWB]

WRT fans, you cannot go wrong with the Orb series. I have an older golden orb that has kept my overclocked celeron flying at 800 for two years now, on a computer which is up nearly as much as a server.

True that to what was said about cooling with properly directed airflow. Case on is better. But if you have a heat issue, the airflow is not properly directed, is it?

WWB

PS: One other thing you might want to look for: the ephemeral loose screw. What I mean is not a screw which is not tightened, but one which is rolling loose inside the case. I had one of these in a computer once, and it kept getting weird crashes. Until I took off the case to upgrad, jostled it around in the process, and lo and behold I had something randomly shorting the thing out.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: wwb_99 ]</p>

[Panzer Leader]

Any good online shops for fans 'n' things?

[BeWary]

I don't know of any good online shops for fans in particular, but if you find a fan you like, search www.pricewatch.com for the best prices. I'm using a Chrome Orb I bought from www.bzboyz.com and it's been fine. I have a bunch of cards in my 1.33 GHz system, which runs almost all day every day, and the cpu hovers right around 54°C even when playing CPU-intensive games. I also have good case air flow, so that makes a difference too.

[Schrullenhaft]

I've had a good experience with CoolerGuys. I don't know if they have the best prices, but they do have good products and service.

[Hedgehog]

I kept having shutdown problems with my athlon 1800+. I took the case off and no more lock ups or shutdowns. Yes most of the time having the case cover off is bad for airflow, but my copper fans throw off a tons of heat that i need to have it open. Putting a case fan in the back and drilling extra holes didn't help. Right now I am attempting to drill case slots on the side panel right where my chips are located. My dual processors are located right under the power supply. The extra heat was also causeing hardware erros (the one I kept getting was a CDrom controller error).

I'll post back if cutting slots in the side of the case works.

[Udrink]

A great place for fans and cooling supplies isAMK Computers. They are located in Canada so perhaps not the best place for most of you to order from.

I would suggest staying away from the "orb" line of fans, but the Volcano 5 is a decent heastsink.

Currently I am running a generic version of this which allows my 1000@1466 to run at about 43' C mostly.

A large case will also help a lot.

[Snarker]

Does sound like a heat problem, and I work on PC's. Try this site - I purchased a new power supply from them to replace one and I was very happy. Higher air flows, very quiet. They also have other cooling solutions.http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home.htm

Best of luck.

[Herr Oberst]

One word: Peltier.

Too hot? Use cryogenics to run that CPU at ridiculous speeds...

Q: How often do you vacuum your computer? Dusty environment? Dust kills by reducing heat dissipation abilities of your hardware.

Now for the rest of us in the world, there are a number of add-ins that you can put into a case that might help...

A mid-tower case works well for me. I've been running a dual CPU machine for 3 years now. With the newer ATA drives and cables, full size towers can be too long a stretch for correctly sized IDE cables.

With a spare external drive bay, there is a double or triple mini-fan that has the form factor of a 5 1/4" drive. I used one at the top of my tower for quite a while, and its sole job in life was to pull hot air out of the top of the case.

I have also seen a 35 cfm fan mounted to the top of the machine for this purpose as well, although you felt like you were at the local airport whenever the machine was turned on.

[Dworkin]

Hi Panzer Leader. Try this:-

I'm going to assume that the CPU cooler came with the machine and is therefore right for the chip. If not GET A NEW ONE!

Step 1. Buy some Arctic Silver thermal compound.

You should be able to find an overclockers shop that sells it through Google.

If it's OK then detach it from the Socket carefully. Does it either the remains of a pad on it's underside or some white goo? If so get that crap offa there! and also from the processor core.

CAREFUL, don't scrape!!

Especially with a metal object as the heatsink will only be aluminium or copper.

Next lie something solid, flat and smooth on the bottom of the heatsink and hold it up to a lightsource. Can you see any light between the two? If you can, you will need to do some gentle smoothing/filling with the finest tool/paper you have.

Once that is flat and smooth you can replace it. I know this is a `no brainer` but make sure that the `step` on the heatsink matches the socket. Put a bead of the Arctic Silver on the chip processor core and replace the cooler.

When clipping the cooler on only apply pressure to the clip as leaning on the cooler to make it fit has been known to crush the core on Athlons!!

I've seen CPU temps dramatically reduced through these simple steps without the need to buy noisy and expensive `super coolers`.

Sorry for the lecture; Hope this helps.

Dworkin

[Jussi Köhler]

I've had similar problems and it wasnt becouse of heat. I recently installed Windows XP and used the 15.70(???, not sure, cant remember) drivers with my Geforce 2 MX400. CM kept crashing over and over... After I tried the 23.10(not sure now either) drivers, the only problems I've had are the AAR screen...

Just my 2 cents...