Demo Questions

[ASL Veteran]

I have a couple of questions about the Combat Mission Shock Force demo. Not that it matters, but for the curious I got CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK but I’m not really ‘in’ to modern combat and when I found that it was going to be real time that basically sealed the deal for me and I decided to pass on it. A few days ago I decided to finally download the demo and try it out and see how it played since I discovered that it runs on both real time and the old we go system. Now that I loaded it up and played the basic training scenario with the stryker platoon driving up to the entrenchments and the city fight, while understanding that the demo is only patched to 1.07 and apparently the game is up to 1.10, I have a few questions:

When I was driving up to the entrenchments the third play through the basic training scenario I decided to have one of my squads grab the Javelin launcher to see if they would fire it at the entrenched enemy and give me some long range fire suppression. Now I used to be in the army quite a while ago (we had steel pots and M60 mg’s and we were just switching from the solid green uniforms to the camo) but about the only weapon that I recognized was the M16 (and it’s not even called an M16 anymore!) so my first problem was that there appeared to be two different Javelin missiles to choose from. After going ‘eany meany miney moe, grab a Javelin by the toe, if it hollers let it go, eany meany miney moe’ I finally selected a Javelin missle for my squad to add to their inventory. I dismounted that squad several hundred meters from the entrenchment and split off the anti tank team. Eventually a few bad guys took a few pot shots at my good guys and I discovered that they wouldn’t fire the Javelin at the enemy (probably good for buildings but not on entrenchments?). I also discovered that the Javelin man wasn’t carrying or using his rifle so he was basically useless to me. The squad was taking a few casualties so I ran the Stryker up to them and loaded them all up to get my boys out of there, and two things happened. First, the Anti Tank team never rejoined the squad. Second, I wanted my trooper who had the Javelin to put it back into the rack in the Stryker so he would use his normal weapon. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a way to ‘ungrab’ the Javelin and put it back in the rack.

Okay, so I load up the city fight and things are going well. I’m actually learning a new way to fight using the Strykers! Very mobile, close range, aggressive with the squad elements using some overwatch from your mg teams and the Strykers from other elements seems to work much better than slugging it out from opposite buildings from essentially fixed positions. It is a bit of a different way to think of things, and a is almost a different mindset for me. It makes sense though as if you leave your guys in the same place for very long I guess it lets the enemy focus in on them and you end up taking more casualties. Now, as far as the game goes I ran into the problem I touched on earlier. A few of my squads were running out of ammo and I sent them back to the Stryker to reload. I see that there is both 5.56 and 7.62 in the Strykers so I load up with 5.56 for the M16s and as I’m unsure if the SAW is 5.56 or 7.62 I go ahead and load up 1000 rounds of 7.62 as well. I soon realize that there doesn’t appear to be a squad weapon that uses the 7.62 and that ammunition is apparently only used by the mg teams. Naturally there appears to be no way for the good guys to get rid of all that 7.62 ammo I had them pick up for no apparent reason so they are stuck humping it around with them. Then something really odd happened. I had two squads split into teams so I could put one team on the roof top and leave another team on the ground floor. When I changed position and had them all run back into the Stryker they wouldn’t recombine (and I even had them sit in the Stryker for a minute not moving to see if they would reform because I wanted them to assault move to clear a building and the Stryker would get to the destination in under a minute and I wanted to have their dismount orders in place). Eventually I decided that they weren’t going to recombine so I drove over to the target building anyway and tried to have them just quick march into the building and hoped they would recombine when they got there (or I would have to manually clear the building using both teams to support each other). Here is where I entered the Twilight Zone because when I drove the Stryker to the building and had the two split squad elements quick march into the building, one team went into the building like it was supposed to but the other team went quick marching down the street back in the direction of where it had originally loaded onto the Stryker. I was like “where the hell are those guys going?” and in the next orders phase I cancelled their orders and told them to quick march to where the other team was but they went in the opposite direction once again. I actually tried to get them to go into the building with the other team several times but eventually I had to give up, drive the Stryker back to where they kept going and reload them onboard to drive them back to where I wanted them. When I unloaded them again they started wandering off to parts unknown again. Eventually I just had to load them into the Stryker and leave them in the Stryker in order to keep them under control. It really was an impossible situation and they should have been put up on charges of insubordination after the battle. (It actually looks like this may have been addressed in the last patch)

I eventually cleared all the bad guys off the objectives, but for some reason even though I had a squad clear every building of the government compound and there were no bad guys in the compound the game wouldn’t acknowledge that I had cleared that objective and end the game (I had more than 45 minutes left and there were a few bad guys down in the corner of the map, but they were irrelevant). What’s it take to have an objective recognized as cleared? I did have the 105 hit one of the buildings with area fire and it may have blown out the second floor for that building in the compound so I couldn’t actually clear that floor – could that have made it impossible to clear the objective?

Finally, I had read in the ‘where we are going’ thread about the WW2 Normandy title that they will be working on (if they haven’t started it already). Has there been any general ETA on that yet or is it too early in development?

[stikkypixie]

If you want to the Javeling, don't forget to tell your guys to pick up the launcher as well.

You can't put stuff back that you acquire, so be careful with that.

And to rejoin a squad you just put them together in the same spot for a while and it will happen automatically.

[MikeyD]

There was a small occassional problem up through build 7 where the rare split squad would get it in their mind to walk back to the original split squad waypoint - which was a tad annoying during gameplay. I haven't seen that happen in a long long looong time so I assume it was all fixed. And yes, game play and movement is VERY much better these days over the build 7 demo

[ChrisND]

... but about the only weapon that I recognized was the M16 (and it’s not even called an M16 anymore!)

The good ole M16 is still around, although in the incarnation of the M16A4. Many Army units are now equipped with the M4, basically a shortened version of the M16.

so my first problem was that there appeared to be two different Javelin missiles to choose from.

There is only one type of Javelin missile. Your manual has the icons for what is what.

Eventually a few bad guys took a few pot shots at my good guys and I discovered that they wouldn’t fire the Javelin at the enemy (probably good for buildings but not on entrenchments?).

This is a good thing. The Javelin is far too precious an AT asset for the AI to be shooting off the hip at spotted infantry. Unless you meant that he wouldn't fire when he directed you to? If that is the case, I dunno, I've never had a problem with that.

I also discovered that the Javelin man wasn’t carrying or using his rifle so he was basically useless to me.

I have seen him switch, although not often enough for my liking. It annoys me too.

First, the Anti Tank team never rejoined the squad.

Could be a couple of things. Could have been they weren't located in the action spot, they could have not been located with each other for long enough, or it could have been a bug. I haven't that particular bug in a long time, so it has been fixed.

Second, I wanted my trooper who had the Javelin to put it back into the rack in the Stryker so he would use his normal weapon. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a way to ‘ungrab’ the Javelin and put it back in the rack.

Annoying, but impossible. Hopefully this gets changed.

Then something really odd happened. I had two squads split into teams so I could put one team on the roof top and leave another team on the ground floor. When I changed position and had them all run back into the Stryker they wouldn’t recombine (and I even had them sit in the Stryker for a minute not moving to see if they would reform because I wanted them to assault move to clear a building and the Stryker would get to the destination in under a minute and I wanted to have their dismount orders in place). Eventually I decided that they weren’t going to recombine so I drove over to the target building anyway and tried to have them just quick march into the building and hoped they would recombine when they got there (or I would have to manually clear the building using both teams to support each other). Here is where I entered the Twilight Zone because when I drove the Stryker to the building and had the two split squad elements quick march into the building, one team went into the building like it was supposed to but the other team went quick marching down the street back in the direction of where it had originally loaded onto the Stryker. I was like “where the hell are those guys going?” and in the next orders phase I cancelled their orders and told them to quick march to where the other team was but they went in the opposite direction once again.

The good news is that these used to be issues, but no longer are.

I eventually cleared all the bad guys off the objectives, but for some reason even though I had a squad clear every building of the government compound and there were no bad guys in the compound the game wouldn’t acknowledge that I had cleared that objective and end the game (I had more than 45 minutes left and there were a few bad guys down in the corner of the map, but they were irrelevant). What’s it take to have an objective recognized as cleared? I did have the 105 hit one of the buildings with area fire and it may have blown out the second floor for that building in the compound so I couldn’t actually clear that floor – could that have made it impossible to clear the objective?

Besides a player-initiated ceasefire/surrender, the only thing that will end a scenario early is an auto-surrender. IIRC, this kicks in when the enemy force goes below a certain percentage strength (hard-coded). So whatever forces were left were enough to keep the auto-surrender from happening.

[Sivodsi]

Eventually a few bad guys took a few pot shots at my good guys and I discovered that they wouldn’t fire the Javelin at the enemy (probably good for buildings but not on entrenchments?).

Yeah, I've found that I could not area fire the javelin on an open ground or entrenchment. You can area fire buildings and of course, vehicles, but its frustrating if you want to shoot the crap out of an entrenched enemy AT asset for example.

I believe this bug has been noted, but can anyone confirm whether it will be fixed in 1.11?

[ASL Veteran]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Yeah, I did remember to take the launcher with me but it really did look like there were two Javelins in the rack because there was one Javelin that IIRC had one designation and there were two other Javelins that I seem to recall had a different designation - or maybe I just got confused because it looked like there were two different ones, but they may have just been separated because they were in different racks in the vehicle or something .. dunno. As far as the Javelin not firing - I didn't take the AT team and actually target it vs the entrenchments (it was me firing at the entrenchments not the other way around - I realise the way I put that in my sentence was unclear). I just left the AT team out and thought they would target by themselves but they didn't. I never got around to taking out the Javelin when in the city scenario, but once I realized that I couldn't put it back in the vehicle (and not knowing if they would use it or not) I never took it out. I'm guessing that the back blast is still present with the Javelin too? I think the Swedes have developed an Anti Tank missile without back blast, but I'm guessing that firing a Javelin out of a building is a bad thing?

I also was under the impression that the man carrying the Javelin would usually carry it on his back until needed so I was a little surprised that he wasn't using his weapon. If he does switch though I never saw it - maybe that was added in a later patch or maybe he just never decided to switch.

A few other interesting things popped up in the city fight though. The squads really had difficulty in taking positions in buildings sometimes whenever I used the 'face' command. If I didn't use the 'face' command they seemed to do okay, but sometimes the squad or team would end up on a balcony on the wrong side of the building or something. Almost everytime I used the face command though some team or squad members just seemed to keep running around back and forth on the rooftop or in the building as if they couldn't decide where to position themselves. The bad guys actually took out an entire squad of mine with some type of AT weapon when my squad was running across the street - even left a freakin' crater! That almost broke my personal morale to see that many good guys go down at once. I really did have a lot of trouble getting my teams to reform into squads though. I only had them rejoin one time. My AT team never rejoined the squad in the first scenario even though they were sitting in the Stryker together for at least about 5 minutes.

[c3k]

ASL Veteran,

You've hit upon some salient weaknesses in the game's User Interface which is a sensitive subject. If you're not an expert on modern weapons, the UI can be quite confusing. The solution, posted here by the representatives of BF.C, is for you to find out about modern weapons on your own. We can hope the UI will be improved.

Javelins need a control/targeting unit as well as the missile. The simple reload missile is the Javelin. The control/targeting unit (CLU) PLUS a missile is at the top of the list in the Stryker. So, you may not have had a CLU. (Oh, the pun!) Also, as others posted, the Javelin is a point weapon, meaning you need a target, other than open ground, to fire it.

Any item, once ACQUIRED, cannot be un-ACQUIRED. That is something you'll see threads pop up about every now and again.

Ammo: indeed, knowing what weapon uses which ammo is important and is left for the user to determine using his own resources.

There have been requests to add tooltips to the UI to assist customers/players who are not experts on modern munitions. I do not know BF.C's stance on that issue.

The rest of the issues (combining, pathfinding) are MUCH better in the current version, 1.10. BF.C has dropped hints that v1.11 is going to be released in the near future.

In its current form, the game is well worth purchasing (Unless you totally abhor modern combat, in which case you shouldn't have even tried the demo!). There is a STEEP learning curve; get through it and you'll be rewarded.

Regards,

Ken

[ASL Veteran]

yeah, who am I fooling. I think I'll order Shock Force and the Marines module tonight. Are there any good scenario hosting sites? I think all the old ones that I remember using are probably toast now. I also think it's interesting, but there are an awful lot of screen names in here that I remember from ... like eight or ten years ago! The level of dedication for this gaming community has to be unmatched. I also got a bit of a chuckle when someone mentioned in that MOUT thread that Battlefront was selling out to casual gamers - they obviously haven't come up for air in a while and looked at stuff like World in Conflict.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Are there any good scenario hosting sites?

CMMODs is an excellent source, as is the new Battlefront File Repository hosted on the main BFC site. Personally I find CMMODs easier to use, but they both have their advantages.

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry I'm getting into this late! Nice to see you oot and aboot ASL Veteran.

For those wondering, we are planning on putting out a v1.11 Demo immediately following the v1.11 patch. We actually had a v1.10 Demo, complete with a Marines scenario, ready but decided to wait until v1.11 was finished before pushing it out.

Steve

[ASL Veteran]

Sorry I'm getting into this late! Nice to see you oot and aboot ASL Veteran.

For those wondering, we are planning on putting out a v1.11 Demo immediately following the v1.11 patch. We actually had a v1.10 Demo, complete with a Marines scenario, ready but decided to wait until v1.11 was finished before pushing it out.

Steve

Thank you for the welcome back . I don't want to sound like a sappy fan boy or anything like that, but I think I can honestly sit here and say with a straight face that the Combat Mission series of games is the best series of games I've ever played (including ASL) and without you and Charles the hardcore wargaming community would really have absolutely no gaming company that catered to it in any way whatsoever. I think sometimes people start to take things for granted, but with your average gaming company lifetime and the lack of quality that is present out there we really have it good here. I mean - 11 patches!? That's got to be some kind of a record or something. Most companies would have abandoned Combat Mission Shock Force after a patch or two (if they even tried to make something that accurate to begin with).

Now that I got that out of the way .... about that 'Acquiring equipment' thing .... LOL