Appalling allegations of U.S. nuclear attack in GW I--if true

[John Kettler]

Allegations are being made by former Iranian president Rafsanjani that the U.S. dropped a 5 KT tacnuke near Basra close to the Iraq/Iran border, causing, pardon the expression, an explosion of cancer cases as a result. Supposedly, over and above that, the evidence includes the statement of U.S. war veteran Dan Brown aired on Italian TV last month and a seismic signature for a 5 KT energy equivalent event near Basra. ISTR 5 KT is right at the detection limit of the worldwide network for detecting underground nuclear tests.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=73177&sectionid=351020101

This is the first I've heard of this story, and I'm most interested in any real evidence anyone has on this, one way or the other.

Given the long history of advanced U.S. live fire weapon testing under cloak of a hot war, it's faintly possible that something like this happened, huge down sides, though if discovered, but if so, I'd imagine it was some sort of advanced "clean bomb," with "clean" being relative! Nor do we have any information whatsoever on what was the target of the alleged attack.

(later)

Further digging produced this, which says the attack was made on the last day of the war and identifies Jim Brown as a then mechanic in the U.S. 10th Mountain Division.

http://shockdoctrine.blogspot.com/2008/10/pentagon-accused-of-nuclear-attack-in.html

All of this apparently caused enough upheaval that the Pentagon issued an official denial.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=03c_1223651234

Per that, Jim Brown was a mechanical engineer, not just a mechanic, and claims he had sources in the area. Certainly, the plains of Basra aren't 10th Mountain country. Whatever went off was picked up in numerous countries, and the seismic ID is given. Also, the Iraqi oncologist interviewed, in one of the many things I waded through, attributed the cancer eruption to DU. Story's a bit muddled!

It is known, from the testimony of engineer Michael Risconosciuto, who helped develop them, that the U.S. has developed nuclear yield range Fuel Air Explosives. They are EPFAE (Electrically Polarized Fuel Air Explosives) which are much more powerful than standard FAE. By electrically charging the cloud before detonating it, a vastly more powerful explosion results. Perhaps that is what was detonated, in an effort to see how it would do under combat conditions. If it worked, we're talking nuclear type destruction--with zero ionizing radiation effects. Interestingly I just finished rereading a military SF story "Flight Of Endeavour," by R.J. Pineiro in the COMBAT anthology by Stephen Coonts. The story is built around what happens when the UN Space Command's module aboard the International space Station is seized by a loyal to the Chechens Russian astronaut, giving him access to the UN's hammer for compliance--30 BLU-85 15 KT equivalent FAEs!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Speedy]

I am appalled......only 5KT, that is woefully inadequate.

I would have thought a 10MT nuke at a minimum would be more appropriate.

[dieseltaylor]

Very interesting. However such a coincidence might be more interesting if we knew the frequency of earthquakes of that size in the area. Once a century very interesting twice a year less so.

The Defence statement is beautifully crafted - ruling out nuclear but not airburst. The uptick in illness is very likely DU however the possibility that these large bombs actually create some exotic VOC cocktail that can be inhaled downwind of the blast should not be dismissed.

It would have been useful if the article had suggested where the SCUDs were launched from - however if they were mobile [likely] it may have been a reported possible location that got targeted. Or possibly they wanted to use one somewhere : )

First call though is rarity of that size seismic disturbance.

[Soddball]

Well, if the Iranian state news agency is claiming it, and the Pentagon is denying it, that means it must be true, right?

[John D Salt]

Well, if the Iranian state news agency is claiming it, and the Pentagon is denying it, that means it must be true, right?

Absolutely. And no need for anyone to explain what the motivation might be for nuking a tract of empty desert, either.

All the best,

John.

[dieseltaylor]

Given the known arsenal in of weapons in 1991 it does look unlikely - but unlikely is not an absolute answer. I understand open desert is a favoured place for testing weaponry John - not that I think it was nuclear.

If I was to be fanciable and have a quantity of old BLU82 bombs carted laboriously to the theatre and was curious what the effect would be of them dropped together rather than individually I might be tempted to find out before the war ended. Just an idle thought.

On a more likely note could it be just black misinformation put out to embarrass the Iranians. Ignoring the item would be impossible but jumping on it too heavily might result in egg on the face. Dammed either way.

[Wildman]

Just think, since DOE actually ownes the nukes...the cover up must be huge and airtight for almost 20 years...amazing

[John Kettler]

Speedy,

By definition, 10MT isn't tactical. Droll, though, in a sick sort of way!

dieseltaylor,

Working the seismic history problem. This might help if we could read Chapter 7.

https://www.geologyiraq.cz/Content.htm

Pages 142 and 144 here appear to indicate that Basra, to more than a 100 km radius, ISN'T a seismic hot zone in the 20th and wasn't from AD 700-1799, either. From A HISTORY OF PERSIAN EARTHQUAKES, by Ambraseys and Melville.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1JkfKub5vakC&pg=PA142&dq=basrah+region,+historical+seismicity&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_0#PPA144,M1

Success! Basra's definitely not a common site for a quake. Here's the plot, showing the where and the magnitude. 5 KT isn't much as a quake goes, considering a M 5 quake = 1 MT nuclear equivalent.

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_xjbh_h.html

As for the press statement, the Pentagon turns out, ISTR, 10,000 PAO types a year, all trained in getting us to see things the way the Pentagon wants them seen.

Soddball,

I don't know. All I have right now are several widely differing views of some event which happened and left seismic traces by possible way of proof.

John D Salt,

I have no idea what was targeted, if anything, nor do I know where the alleged DGZ lay.

dieseltaylor,

I have read that the U.S. used GW I as an excuse to clear out a lot of obsolete and even dangerous conventional munitions. I understand dud rates ran as high as 15%.

Might be interesting to look at the EOD reports for where the B-52s carpet bombed the Iraqis in their static positions for weeks before the ground war commenced. Your BLU-82 argument intrigues me and is certainly possible. OTOH, it would likely require some sort of specialized radio fuze to make all the weapons detonate at the same time.

Remember, it's one BLU-82 per C-130.

People,

I see I missed one correction. Where it says "Dan Brown" it should read "Jim Brown." No, NOT the pro football player!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

mmm Jim Brown by his own admission, when asked when he was in Iraq, only stated he was in a support role in Saudi from Sept to 16 Feb 1991. He never clearly admits to having ever been in Iraq, let alone in the Basra region - and returned back to the US for family reasons (and subsequently demoted) before the 'event' on 27 Feb. From the TV interview he only 'knows' a bunker busting ground penetrating nuke was used by word of mouth.

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/rainews24_2007/inchieste/08102008_bomba/video_ENG.asp

As a background stat there are an estimated 13,000 4.0 - 4.9 magnitude quakes annually worldwide.

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqstats.html

Why 'test' a bunker buster in territory not in US control??

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f22-military-technology/47497-nuke-not-nuke-2.html#19

[dieseltaylor]

This is how "keen" the Iranians are on the report

"If it the report turns out to be true, then the US should be asked why it has resorted to such a crime to punish the then-bankrupt Iraqi government," Fars news agency quoted Rafsanjani as saying.

So a big if from them -and I would doubt nuclear completely. Getting some jollies out of dumping ordinance - sure. I take on board the need to synchronise explosions but do not see any reason why it should not be carried out over enemy territory.

My favoured approach is it is black information to the detriment of Mr Brown and his organisation and potentially the Iranian Govt.. Well worth a punt if I were in charge of disinformation etc.

[Wilhammer]

Venezuelan military did it.

[John D Salt]

I understand open desert is a favoured place for testing weaponry John - not that I think it was nuclear.

Call me a quaint old-fashioned thing if you must, but when I worked for DERA (the E stands for "Evaluation") the favoured place for testing weapons was on a test range. Quite strongly favoured, in fact. Doing the testing at a place other than a test range does tend to rather destroy the point, in that you can't collect the data which are the only reason for the test's existence.

The French do nuke-testing-in-someone-else's-desert-with-worrying-political-overtones much better than this, or, at least, they did at the beginning of the sixties -- Gerboise Bleue, Blanche, Rouge and Verte, all let off in Algeria. But even then, it was at a properly instrumented test range, not some random patch of sand. And as "Gerboise" is the French for "Jerboa", we are getting perilously close to nuclear hamstertruppen.

The most plausible motive for the US to let off an instant sunshine squib in the middle of MMFD is, IMO, to create a souvenir in the form of a giant radioactive glass ashtray.

All the best,

John.

[dieseltaylor]

JD Salt. I think it is right and proper that evaluation is carried out at testing ranges. However perhaps I ought to make explicit what I was implying. If dropping a large number of obsolescent bombs meant I could get more newly dated ones under a War budget and incidentally save transporting them back to the US, and have some fun, and call it a "test" - I would.

Obviously I am a tight-fisted devious fun-loving individual - but then nobody is perfect. And also some one who likes black propaganda as an elegant instrument to wreck reputations and discredit.

[Soddball]

Soddball,

I don't know. All I have right now are several widely differing views of some event which happened and left seismic traces by possible way of proof.

Regards,

John Kettler

Let's see the seismograph results then, and we can compare them to the results from a 5KT nuclear blast's seismograph result. You must have both of these pieces of information? Otherwise, you'd be taking an anti-American dictatorship's state news agency report, and the unsubstantiated claim of an aircraft mechanic at face value with no evidence.

So let's see the seimsograph results. Just post the link.

[Wicky]

It was a deep bunker buster if it penetrated a reported 35km into the earth's crust....

[Michael Emrys]

It was a deep bunker buster if it penetrated a reported 35km into the earth's crust....

And the Pentagon never told us! *gasp*

Michael

[tiny_tanker]

Didn't they drop a daisy cutter down there somewhere? That would have had some good seismic activity.

[Lars]

It was a deep bunker buster if it penetrated a reported 35km into the earth's crust....

Ah, should be easy to find the spot then.

Just look for the new volcano.

[Wildman]

Given that the B-61mod11 (the new penetrating tactical nuke) wasn't even fielded then and that the average tactical yield is 100+KTons...I'd say that someone doesn't know diddle squat.

However, we did drop old Vietnam era M117s in both DS and OIF/OEF out of guam and diego off of B-52s, partly because the boom still works and its cheaper to use them than demil them....and you thought the Air Force couldn't be frugal.

[luderbamsen]

The notion that nukes were used is stupid for a number of reasons, including those metioned above and the fact that the US administration wasn't f-ing stupid.

The story is most convenient for the Iranians though, what with their own nuclear programme and all.