Air Support UI Request

[c3k]

In a previous thread, Steve wrote:

"On our ToDo List are a couple of ideas on how to better communicate what an Air Asset has on it so the player will not be surprised at the result.

Steve"

Well, here's my idea: TELL US WHAT THE WEAPONS ARE!!

C'mon, this game is so detailed in so many ways and then you wave a broad brush "Heavy", "Medium", and "Light" on the Air Support graphic. It doesn't make sense.

Why not "4x 2000#LGB", "8x 250#SDB", "2,000 20mm"?

I know for a fact that when the JTAC and CAS element initiate contact that one of the first, vital, pieces of information exchanged is the EXACT ordnance loadout on the CAS element. This allows the JTAC to know what tools are at his disposal. Right now, we have NO idea what's coming in.

Seriously, list the loadouts. It would be nice to have them updated after a run, but that's gravy.

Having a variety of loadouts available in the scenario editor would give designers the tools needed to have an appropriate CAS in the game.

Obviously, at some point in the future, we will NEED the ability to drop GBU-28's (that's the 5,000# bunker buster)! But I'll save that complaint for future date...

I'm sure you're MODELLING specific weapons. Why not COMMUNICATE what they are?

Thanks,

Ken

[ChrisND]

Ditto with the indirect. And that is plenty realistic too - FOs often asked me what our exact ammo situation was.

[John Kettler]

c3k,

Concur! Also, a potentially neat FOW element is that, in a fast breaking combat situation you get CAS, but the harried battle director simply sends the first available, which may or may not be optimal for your combat needs. That's the reality of war. Believe pilot would report fuel state along with ordnance load, for knowing CAS aircraft loiter time is important to effective CAS use, too. Is it one pass and gone, or can this bird hang around and be used repeatedly? Very good to know when suddenly fighting outnumbered!

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

John,

Yes, time available is also passed on. This is probably not relevant for CMSF. At some point the logistics get dropped for the fun of a game.

Listing the loadouts would be a tremendous improvement. I've got 21 years in the USAF, active and reserve, and I've got no friggin' idea what "Light" means. I _think_ it means different things depending on the scenario, but I'm not sure. Whatever. Right now CMSF gives you feedback on different types of obscurant, different levels of track damage, how many rounds are ready in any given tank. This is a small bit of feedback which needs improvement.

Thanks,

Ken

[Martin Krejcirik]

Air support UI needs the following:

choise of type of attack: precision/unguided

choise of type of target: armour/infantry for area request

Rectangular area selection

Better indication of guidance (gps/laser both for spotter and platform).

For example GPS guided bomb probably won't work well against moving trarget. But how can I tell, if I don't know type of guidance ? How can I tell whether laser designator is needed or not ?

[Fat Dave]

Good point Ken, let's hope it can be implemented without too much trouble.

[missinginreality]

But how can I tell, if I don't know type of guidance ? How can I tell whether laser designator is needed or not ?

There was a note in recent thread regarding Marine JTAC deployment concerning laser designating in that it wasn't working as well as in theory due to harsh sunlight and dust of ME conditions.

[Roter Stern]

For starters all we need are tooltips over the 'ammo bars', so that at least you can tell which ammo type they represent.

[SlowMotion]

And once all ammo from available units has been used the AirSupport/Arty icon could change so you wouldn't need to open the window to check ammo status.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

For starters all we need are tooltips over the 'ammo bars', so that at least you can tell which ammo type they represent.

Yup, that's the important thing IMHO. The information is already there, it's just a bugger to interpret.

TBH, I want tooltips everywhere telling me everything.

[ChrisND]

TBH, I want tooltips everywhere telling me everything.

Hello, my name is Normal Dude, and I am a tool tip junkie.

[El Hombre]

Didn't I read somewhere that unguided bombs were completely phased out?

So I don't think we'll need the unguided/laser designation any more.

[Gridley]

Mav's or JDAMs is an important decision, however.

[Chainsaw]

Didn't I read somewhere that unguided bombs were completely phased out?

So I don't think we'll need the unguided/laser designation any more.

Are you sure? because the standard Mk 82 GPB are pretty accurate when delivered by a "non useless" pilot so it would supprise me if they phased unguided bombs out.

and I cant see how they always can have the targets lighted up for the guided munitions?

/Thomas

[SgtMuhammed]

Most of them are GPS or can be lazed by pods carried on the aircraft themselves. I think the only thing that carries dumb bombs anymore would be a B52 doing a saturation run.

[Gridley]

Are you sure? because the standard Mk 82 GPB are pretty accurate when delivered by a "non useless" pilot so it would supprise me if they phased unguided bombs out.

and I cant see how they always can have the targets lighted up for the guided munitions?

/Thomas

Are we talking "in game" or "in real life"?

[c3k]

Gents,

Resurrecting this to go with my "Back at the Fire Control Center" thread. Some comments were made in the artillery discussion which touched upon air support. I thought it would be germane to bring this back to life.

In short, the game tracks specific ammo. The ammo is loaded on the planes. Why can't the player SEE what the ammo is? I'm not asking for player CONTROL over the ammo; simply a better feedback mechanism. Right now all I see are three 40mm grenade rounds. WTF? I _think_ the one to the left is for light attacks, but I have no friggin' clue.

Also, what the **** happens if my air support icon only has ammo bars on, say, the left-most grenade icon, but I ask for a medium area type attack? Will the aircraft refuse? Will I know if it refuses? Will it substitute the putative light weapon for the requested medium attack? Will I be told? If it only has heavy ordnance left but I ask for a light attack will the same results apply? I KNOW a JTAC would have all that information.

Regards,

Ken

[jenrick]

I agree with you entirely c3k. Why not simply have each ammo bar tool tipped to what the weapon type is, and rather then "light, medium, heavy" just have "25mm cannon, Maverick, Mk82 JDAM" as my weapon choices. If I call for a JDAM on a tank company then it's my own fault if it's less effective then going mavericks. Wouldn't seem that hard to implement, heck just change the CAS call interface to say "weapon 1, weapon 2, weapon 3" and make use responsible for keeping track that'd still be an improvement.

What I'd really like to know is what exactly was the though process behind the light, medium, heavy attack? If Air power was abstracted as just a certain "size" of attack that just varied on damage or something I can see it. But with a light attack on on AC being a 20mm cannon, and light on another a salvo of rockets it just doesn't work.

-Jenrick

[Wildman]

The unguided weapon is depended on ATO and airframe. Right now F-15Es are NOT using unguided weapons, but teh A-10C are using Mk-82s with DSU-33 (Airburst).

I'm not Steve, but there are approximately 20-40 different combinations they would have to model...all for the same effect.

A list of all weapons with a Mk-82 500lb effect.

Mk-82LD

Mk-82HD

Mk-82LD airburst

Mk-82HD airburst

GBU-12

GBu-12 airburst

GBu-38

GBU-38 airburst

GBU-54

GBU-54 airburst

Mk-84s are even worse

Mk-84 HD/LD with/without airburst

GBU-31v1 (airforce) v3 (navy/marines)

GBU-31v3 (airforce) v4 (navy/marines) (penetrator)

GBU-10 (with delayed fusing/airburst/contact)

GBU-24 (with delayed fusing/airburst/contact)

GBU-15 (Rocket assisted gliding bomb)

There are four different Mavericks, and multiple rocket combinations.

I too want a more accurate loadout and a way to choose them, just like real life...however, I would like to point out that its not just as simple as GBU vs JDAM.

[jenrick]

All right, well how many effects are there? I'm assuming a 500, 1000, and 2000 lb bomb. A couple of ATGM, few different type of rockets, and several types of cannons. Call it what a dozen?

I understand where you're coming from that a there are potentially a ton of different labels that need/could be slapped onto the weapon to indicate what it is, even though in game it's just a name attached to one of a dozen or so generic effects. Why not just use generics for now for names? I think most people would be happy with a choice of for example "cannon, HE rocket, and ATGM" as the weapon choices. Sure it'd be great for it to say Maverick if it's an A-10 and Hellfire if it's an Apache, but I'll settle for filling in the blanks myself.

Shoot even just a good break down on what means what would help along with more description on the CAS unit tab. Ground attack doesn't mean much since that can range from cannon to Tomahawk (we are getting B-52's someday right?). Bombs and rockets is a little more descriptive. A chart saying that a Harrier carrying bombs and rockets has the following weapon for each attack type (25 mm cannon - light; rockets - medium; 500lbs - heavy) would be even better. I'm talking just a hard copy reference chart even, just something I can look at.

-Jenrick

[c3k]

Wildman,

I don't think ANYONE here is asking for a comprehensive breakout of all possible air-to-ground ordnance. Right now CMSF models a few basic samples of air support. I actually counted them once: I think CMSF has 14 or 17; CMSF:M has one more.

Take those SAME EXACT AIR SUPPORT ASSETS. Don't add any other combinations or any other possibilities. Just use exactly what is already in the game. Then replace the useless 40mm grenade icons. Replace them with generic ordnance. Like, say, a GAU12 icon, or Mk84 icon, or a Mk82 icon. Then, now that the player can SEE what may be falling near him, replace the funky red through green gradations with an actual count. (Cannons excepted: let them stay within the accepted ammo status practice.)

Now, under my imaginary system, when I click on the air support asset as the JTAC, I should have the same information a JTAC has - which is pertinent to the game. I should know what ordnance is available and how much of it is available.

That information is missing right now.

Thanks,

Ken

[Wildman]

To some extent this could be true but there are three distinct delivery systems and profile for each type of weapon.

For every bomb there is

1. Unguided

2. GPS

3. Laser seeker

Each one has a different CEP and target set, much of which overlaps...but for example.

Your JTAC has a T-64 in sight and you call in a F-16CJ...realistically it should drop a GBU-12 as the onboard (or JTAC held) laser holds the target even if moving. Ok, but what if he doesn't have a GBU-12 but instead has a GBU-38 or 31 (JDAM). In that case it should drop wherever your pointer was when you clicked "confirm" regardless of what happens in the mean time. What if he was carring Mavericks...(we won't even go into the three to four distinct types of Mavericks each with a different seeker head type). Realistically, the plane should come down and pop the tank...albiet with a higher friendly fire chance than an LGB.

To make it realistic, you would have to pick

1. The aircraft

2. The weapon

2a. Each type of weapon seeker would need to have a different air deliver profile

3. Target (or Target Area)

4. Direction of Attack axis because of the danger close.

I'm not saying that Air Assets don't need changed, or at least made more realistic/user friendly...I'm just trying to point out the problem is much larger from a coding standpoint when you peel back the onion.

[c3k]

No. I disagree with you Wildman.

Right now do you have to select ANY of that in game? No.

If you set up air support in the editor you get some generic choices. They are already pre-set with the various flavors of munitions that BF.C wants to have. In my proposal, all that remains the same. The only difference is HOW IT IS SHOWN.

Fine, they include Laser seekers: include a laser graphic next to the bomb. That would show the player that you could expect a very tight CEP (based on visibility). GPS? Do something similar: show a graphic icon next to the bomb which indicates GPS guidance.

So, bomb size shows the player how much of a "boom" effect will occur. Guidance icon shows how close to aimpoint the bomb _should_ hit.

Right now that is all simulated already. You just don't have ANY friggin' clue what's being dropped!

In the editor is the ONLY place that would be a factor. And it would only be a factor while you're CHOOSING the preset air assets.

So, no, you don't have to pick aircraft, weapon, seeker, target, or axis.

Right now you're limited to air heavy, air medium, etc. As I said earlier, about 15 specific permutations. All I'm asking is having the ordnance icons reflect what is actually being simulated.

In game, I'd LOVE to have a linear target type for air support. One end would be the desired impact point, the rest of the line would dictate the run in axis. But that'd be candy at this point.

Imagine a JTAC not knowing what he's calling for? That's what the game does right now. (Unless you've run a LOT of tests and committed the results to memory.) Otherwise, is there a difference between an F-15E and an F-16CJ?

Thanks,

Ken

[Wildman]

No there isn't and that's because from a grunts perspective there is no difference. It doesn't matter what dropped the bomb, just what bomb dropped.

I agree that there needs to be some changes to make air more realistic, but I would rather have wholesale changes to accurately reflect the multitude if weapons available. Right now airpower is the one asymetrical force the US has at its disposal and I can't use it exactly how I see in in the daily targeting pod video I watch.

Where we are is a good start, but the required changes will (in my uncomputer educated opinion) be difficult to do. I don't JUST want a counter to tell me how many bombs I have, I want to help BFC make the air piece of this game as accurate as everything else.

[c3k]

Hmmm,

I'm not sure how much player (or BF.C) support there'd be for a complete air/ground simulation.

The enemy of good enough is perfection. I don't see getting a high fidelity air/ground game built into CMx2.

I, obviously, just want CMx2 to better simulate the INFORMATION available to JTAC's (a unit in-game over which the player exercises total control).

I disagree that from a grunt's perspective there is no difference. Or, are you talking only about the airframe? If so, we agree. I think the bomb guidance and size (or any other air delivered ordnance) does need to be passed to the player for the very reason that those factors DO make a difference in the grunt's world.

Thanks,

Ken