SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 On Veteran difficulty. The russians are attacking from the top left. As positioned, those five tanks (all PzIVC or PzIII) are hidden until the russian tanks (BT-7 and T34/41) drive past them at extremely close ranges (<50m), showing their flanks and rears. I would have expected a lot of dead russian tanks, with little or no losses. What would you expect? Well. In this game, it turns out, the standard outcome is five dead german panzers for maybe one BT-7 and one T34 (if you're lucky). Yes. Realistic indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoaN Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 At that period of war T34 were pretty “strong” tanks. IVC and III were starting to lose there force because of construction lacks. Also 34 had rather thick armor; hitting T34 became rather hard mission - thanks to the armor angle. Nazi ammo and guns hadn’t much power to penetrate T34 effectively. Also you didn’t place your tanks tactically correct. [ May 03, 2007, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: SoaN ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 SoaN: You believe that the PzIVC is incapable of penetrating a T34/41 at 50m. Alright. Next please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFMM Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 SirReal, That is also a lousy ambush. You've placed all your tanks so they engage one on one. What you want in multiple on one from multiple angles. Learn to mass your armour better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 SirReal, the way you placed your tanks, you have created a lot of 1 on 1 duels. At 50m, that's basing your entire plan on pure luck because each side is able to knock the other out quickly. What you should do instead probably is to create kill zones where two or more of your tanks can engage one enemy tank. The way you are positioned the enemy can overwhelm you piecemeal. BTW - at such extremely short ranges various additional factors come into play in the penetration calculations, such as shattering rounds, which can have a dramatic impact. Martin PS. PFMM beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by PFMM: SirReal, That is also a lousy ambush. You've placed all your tanks so they engage one on one. What you want in multiple on one from multiple angles. Learn to mass your armour better. You are incorrect. Thanks to the (not so) brilliant AI, the russian tanks come driving between the train and the houses on the left. I engage two or three to one, at about 50m, firing at the enemy rear and flanks. Next please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Moon: See above. In CM:BB or AK, I wouldn't have done this setup. Thanks to the braindead AI, this works fine. 2-1 or 3-1 at flanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jippo Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by SirReal: SoaN: You believe that the PzIVC is incapable of penetrating a T34/41 at 50m. Alright. Next please. That was actually the case back then, T-34 could be penetrated routinely by very few means in 1941. Namely heavy caliber AA-guns. -jippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Seems like the AI isn't so braindead when you are still losing Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by Moon: BTW - at such extremely short ranges various additional factors come into play in the penetration calculations, such as shattering rounds, which can have a dramatic impact.Hmmm.. funny how all the rounds from the PzIV's shatter against the T34, but the T34 doesn't seem to have that problem. I guess the german ammo quality was really bad compared to the russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by Moon: Seems like the AI isn't so braindead when you are still losing Martin I get three-four hits from 75mm at the T34 side or rear. No kill. Repeatedly. Yes, I suppose that's one way for the AI to ensure victory... although I wouldn't say there's much of 'intelligence' in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Just out of curiosity, send me the save file. paintman1066@hotmail.com I'd like to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoaN Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by SirReal: SoaN: You believe that the PzIVC is incapable of penetrating a T34/41 at 50m. Alright. Next please. If you want to have a dialog with me please be more polite. I'm telling you about the whole situation on the front at that time. PzIVc can penetrate T34\41 from 50 meters. But don’t forget about ricochet and etc. It is myth about “developers that made there tanks undying”. Not a single TTX of Russian\German\Polish\American\British tank, AT, MG and etc were taken of air. There are all took from historical documents and working drawings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by Normal Dude: Just out of curiosity, send me the save file. paintman1066@hotmail.com I'd like to play it. On the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Well, the T-34 has pretty good armor all around - 45-40mm for front, sides and rear according to the encyclopedia. The PzIV.C has a penetration capability of 47mm at 100m, and that doesn't necessarily get much better at shorter distances than 100m, so I can see why a lot of your shots don't penetrate. On the other hand, the T-34 can penetrate 80mm and more with its 75mm gun, so again I can see why they would get a lot of first hit kills. Frankly, your ambush is putting your panzers at a disadvantage and as they are totally overpowered by the T-34s you should consider hit and run tactics perhaps to try to at least immobilize some of the T-34s before they come to close. The outcome as is seems perfectly realistic to me. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by SoaN: If you want to have a dialog with me please be more polite. I don't think I was being offensive, but I'll be nicer to you, since you ask. Like I stated in a previous post, I wouldn't use this setup in a Combat Mission game, mostly because it's bad tank tactics. I "works" here since the AI tanks just drive right on through, allowing me to shoot at their flanks and rear at point blank range. I realize that the "intended" way to win this scenario is most likely re-crewing the ZIS-2 and 45mm AT guns, as those are the only guns available to the german player that has a snowballs chance in hell to kill a T34 at range. Lobbing HE hoping to track them is bad mojo. Still, I do think that hitting a T34 several times in the flank and read at those ranges should result in a quick knockout. It usually doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirReal Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by Moon: Frankly, your ambush is putting your panzers at a disadvantage and as they are totally overpowered by the T-34s you should consider hit and run tactics perhaps to try to at least immobilize some of the T-34s before they come to close. The outcome as is seems perfectly realistic to me. Martin In CM:BB, what would you expect if three PzIVC fire at the flank of a T34/41 at 50m? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I don't know, it's been ages since I played any CMBB, but you will surely tell me soon. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoaN Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by SirReal: Still, I do think that hitting a T34 several times in the flank and read at those ranges should result in a quick knockout. It usually doesn't. As I have already wrote in other topic there are some issues that are also calculated in the game. May be it will explain your question “Why?”. Here is the list: - armor thickness - hit angle - ricochet angle - shell normalization angle, if normalization is supported by type of ammo - in the moment of normalization there is calculated a chance of destruction of shell - type of ammo. For example if APHE penetrates armor there will occur explosion inside the tank causing some extra fragmental damage. T34 is not a super tank. They are so constantly “popping” when there is more powerful weapon against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Interestingly in CM:BB I've seen point blank PzIVC shots just ricochet off the side and rear of a T34. Then the T34 will just turn around and slug them, their curved armor gives them up to 90mm thickness. The gun on the PzIVC is quite awful at taking out T34s or better, you need PzIVGs or Flak88s to tackle them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 What are you aiming at? If hull, let's take a look. T-34 Mod 41, armour 45mm at 40 degrees, so approx 60mm of armor from a straight on shot. 75mm KwK 37 L/24 penetration value, depending on source, abot 54mm at 0 degree angle. Since 60mm of armor (45 at 40 degrees) is greater then 54mm, why would the shot do anything but bounce off? If you want to take out the angles, lets base everything on 30 degrees shall we? According to Jentz, the gun could penetrate 41mm at 100 meter at 30 degrees, so 43mm at 50 meters. Russian T34 mod 41 45mm without angle, still cannot penetrate unless exceedinly lucky. There was a reason the 75mm was given a longer barrel. Hmm realistic indeed. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Forgot to put in my sources. Panzer Truppen The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force 1933-1942, Thomas L. Jentz, 1996 Panzer Truppen The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force 1943-1945, Thomas L. Jentz, 1996 Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, 1999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seppDieter Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 you should maybe replay the same scenario, but with PZIV G's instead? the problem is that they haye the right gun for the job, but they wont be able to take many hits in return. to really test the AI you need to place exactly the same tanks aganst each other. because the PZiv G is slightly inferior to T-34, but the panther is superior. so you need to place T-34's against other t-34's if possible. then it should turn in favor of the the ambushers(if the AI is realistic) to those who critisised his tactics: if he would have placed his PZiv C's bunched together at longer range in the open, with a hit-n-run tactic. then you would probably told him that it was better to hide them in the village and ambush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kettenhund Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Originally posted by rune: What are you aiming at? If hull, let's take a look. T-34 Mod 41, armour 45mm at 40 degrees, so approx 60mm of armor from a straight on shot. 75mm KwK 37 L/24 penetration value, depending on source, abot 54mm at 0 degree angle. Since 60mm of armor (45 at 40 degrees) is greater then 54mm, why would the shot do anything but bounce off? If you want to take out the angles, lets base everything on 30 degrees shall we? According to Jentz, the gun could penetrate 41mm at 100 meter at 30 degrees, so 43mm at 50 meters. Russian T34 mod 41 45mm without angle, still cannot penetrate unless exceedinly lucky. There was a reason the 75mm was given a longer barrel. Hmm realistic indeed. Rune Rune, do you know abot this ammunition type for 75mm Kw.K. 37 L / 24: Gr.38 Hl / A High Explosive Anti-Tank (penetration data for RHA plate @ 30° 0 m - 1000 m ---> 70mm Gr.38 Hl / B High Explosive Anti-Tank (penetration data for RHA plate @ 30° 0 m - 1000 m ---> 75mm Gr.38 Hl / C High Explosive Anti-Tank (penetration data for RHA plate @ 30° 0 m - 1000 m ---> 100mm PZIV Ausf. A-F was able to destroy T34 up to 1000 meters. But, also deadly sure on 50 meters. Next think is quality of russian poor moulding amor steel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 T34 is a mean sloped beast ... Blueprint from battlefield.ru: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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