Is body armour factored into speed?

[Nikki Mond]

Another way to put it, the relative speed at run of a syrian soldier in this game should be faster than the US capabilities due to body armour. Was wondering if this is factored into fatigue?

[rudel.dietrich]

Also the average syrian soldier is weighed down with alot less crap as well.

Rifle, ammo and some gernades might be all some soldiers carry.

If your a US soldier you have a backpack filled with all manner of equipment weighing you down.

I have pushed for in the past that Syrian troops be faster and tire slower than US troops.

[PLM2]

Dont forget to consider fitness. Cant say I believe the Syrian army is the most fit in the world

[Splinty]

It's very uncommon for mechanized to carry more than is absolutely neccesary in to a fight. Now that dosen't mean they're not weighed down, IBA and the basic ammo load (2 genades, 210 rounds of 5.56mm,NVGs etc.)is still around 80 lbs. But a rucksack full of gear isn't needed when your Stryker or Brad can carry it for you.

[Battlefront.com]

Splinty is correct. The only thing we have on our soldier models now that is debatable is the dropleg gasmask. Some guys here, with combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, have said we should remove it because nobody totes it around with them. But that wasn't true during the initial OIF invasion phase because there was a chemical weapons threat at that time. Now... no, unless you include the one off chlorine truck bombs that are going on. Since Syria does have large stockpiles of chemical agents, and the means of delivering them, I think it is a pretty safe assumption to make that the initial invasion force would not be leaving these things back in their vehicles.

Our understanding of bodyarmor and speed is that it doesn't affect top speed, rather it affects endurance. This is factored into the game. Everything a soldier carries, from boots to weapons, has a weight. That weight is used when calculating Condition, which is also based on Fitness (like CMBB/AK). Man for man, with Fitness being equaly, almost all Syrian soldier types have an advantage because they have a lower total load. Of course they are also far more vulnerable to wounds, so that's the classic tradeoff for you... protection vs. mobility.

Steve

[sage2]

What about MOP gear for the initial invasion? Will US Soldiers be forced to fight in (and suffer the resulting fatigue) MOP gear?

[Imperial Grunt]

US forces would probably be in MOPP2 for the invasion, until it was confirmed that the Syrians would not use chem.

Given the scenario about radicals taking over the government, then I think they would. Which begs the question..is chem going to be simulated?

Sarin, VX, mustard, etc...

It would give a mighty boost to Syrian combat power, well at least to the Guards and SF units that would have access to decent MOPP gear. The others would become victims themselves.

But if chem was used..the US might up the ante!

[ April 13, 2007, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Imperial Grunt ]

[sage2]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

US forces would probably be in MOPP2 for the invasion, until it was confirmed that the Syrians would not use chem.

Given the scenario about radicals taking over the government, then I think they would. Which begs the question..is chem going to be simulated?

Sarin, VX, mustard, etc...

It would give a mighty boost to Syrian combat power, well at least to the Guards and SF units that would have access to decent MOPP gear. The others would become victims themselves.

But if chem was used..the US might up the ante!

I think that being forced to think tactically in such a f***ed environment would be an absolute blast.

[Cpl Steiner]

It would be nice if we had access to some of these assumptions in game. For instance, when designing a scenario it would be nice to be able to specify whether or not NBC gear is carried.

For instance, if I want to do a "Rangers in Somalia" type mission, we all know from "Black Hawk Down" that they chucked all their heavy equipment before being inserted into the combat zone because they believed, wrongly as it turned out, that they wouldn't need any of it.

[Beastttt]

the only place they could use that stuff would be far away from cities otherwise you are going to have a lot of civilian casulties(that is if the new goverment even cares)

they might get away with it a couple of times

but when civilians start seeing pics of just dead civilians and nato forces your going to see a second coup

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

US forces would probably be in MOPP2 for the invasion, until it was confirmed that the Syrians would not use chem.

Given the scenario about radicals taking over the government, then I think they would. Which begs the question..is chem going to be simulated?

Sarin, VX, mustard, etc...

It would give a mighty boost to Syrian combat power, well at least to the Guards and SF units that would have access to decent MOPP gear. The others would become victims themselves.

But if chem was used..the US might up the ante!

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by sage2:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

US forces would probably be in MOPP2 for the invasion, until it was confirmed that the Syrians would not use chem.

Given the scenario about radicals taking over the government, then I think they would. Which begs the question..is chem going to be simulated?

Sarin, VX, mustard, etc...

It would give a mighty boost to Syrian combat power, well at least to the Guards and SF units that would have access to decent MOPP gear. The others would become victims themselves.

But if chem was used..the US might up the ante!

I think that being forced to think tactically in such a f***ed environment would be an absolute blast. </font>

[Battlefront.com]

No chem weapons simulated in CM:SF. It wouldn't be much fun, so not much point. Kinda like the whole idea that the US would be able to invade in 2008. Realistically, no... but if we bowed to that we wouldn't have much of a game at all, no would we?

Steve

[sage2]

Having done a few exercises in MOPP4, I hope to never, ever, never have to fight in a Chem/Bio/Nuke environment. Its not a blast.

I wasn't suggesting that we players be made to play in the MOP suits. :=\ That makes it hard to hit the right keys and get the beer and cheesits in.

[Apocalypse 31]

I kind of think this whole discussion is bunk. You really need to understand the training that US soldiers go through to get acclimated to their body armor.

We practically LIVE in our body armor for periods of time. It's really not that heavy once you get used to it, and we even go so far as to conduct physical training with it.

So no, I really dont see how American soldiers would 'tire' from wearing it. Maybe having Syrian soldiers without body armor move a BIT quicker (not a whole lot) but certainly not have American soldiers tire out. Thats just lame, and incorrect.

[tankibanki]

Originally posted by LT Mike:

We practically LIVE in our body armor for periods of time. It's really not that heavy once you get used to it, and we even go so far as to conduct physical training with it.

In my opinion this discussion is still useful. If US soldiers do PT with body armor, then the fatigue modeling shouldn't change, instead US soldiers should be given better fitness values in scenario design. This would have additional positive effects on mobility if you send them into combat without armor as it should if that's possible.

From my experience at international competitions US training workouts favoured strength at the cost of endurance compared to other western armies. However that could be totally different today. In those times body armor wasn't commonly used, either, so nobody thought of using it in training.

[aka_tom_w]

Steve says:

Our understanding of bodyarmor and speed is that it doesn't affect top speed, rather it affects endurance. This is factored into the game.

From what Lt. Mike posts and common sense this sounds about right.

I would suggest this aspect of the game will be modeled as accurately as possible.

-tom w

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

Having done a few exercises in MOPP4, I hope to never, ever, never have to fight in a Chem/Bio/Nuke environment. Its not a blast.

Try having to run the gas chamber for your entire battalion. My guys were whining that they had to spend a couple minutes in CS. I had to stand in that thing for 8 hours a day for 3 days.

I wouldn't wish MOPP4 on my ex-girlfriend. Well maybe.

A couple things to keep in mind is that the weight is distributed and once you train in it for a while you hardly notice it. You really notice it when you take it off but you just get used to having it on.

[C'Rogers]

A fairly related thread on this matter was brought up a long while ago.

Tiring

[Broompatrol]

"Our understanding of bodyarmor and speed is that it doesn't affect top speed, rather it affects endurance. "

Steve [/QB]

[Apocalypse 31]

Originally posted by Broompatrol:

"Our understanding of bodyarmor and speed is that it doesn't affect top speed, rather it affects endurance. "

Steve

Steve, I respectfully disagree with the idea that body armor does not affect top speed. Unless you mean the fastest a soldier will run and still stay in a cohesive formation. In which case please ignore the rest of this post

I am a competive triathlete and have competed in a host of other sports as well. and I can tell you that anything you put on your body that restricts movement (even a bulky jacket)Like webbing, friction from trousers, the bouncing mass of gear, will affect your top speed and endurance. BUT, please note I am talking about TOP speed and not organized disciplined movement, which would be slower anyway. [/QB]

[Matthias]

i am sorry mike but your WRONG, adding mass to a object/person DOES affect speed and endurance you can't get something for nothing, yes you might get used to the equipment, but its still there, adding extra weight, extra weight your muscles have compensate for, its the same as trying to run thu water, i don't care how long you been runing thu water, your not going to out run someone runing on land, its basic physics.

if you take 2 people of equal fitness, give one more weight to carry then the other, and he will be slower and have less endurance then the other, no matter how long hes trained with the extra weight.

[Imperial Grunt]

Ok, my two-cents.

Flaks with ESAPI plates (and now the side plates for those who wear them), will always effect speed and endurance, that is the bottom line. It is encumbering and it makes everything slower, even just getting in and out of a HMMMV. Go for a short 3K foot patrol, crossing over ditches, walls, in 120 degree heat, and it will feel like 1000lbs.

As soon as a shot is fired, or a bomb goes off, you get a rush of adrenaline, and for a awhile, your not thinking about the weight, but that armor still makes you a little slower compared to someone that is not wearing any. And when that adrenaline wears off, the weight feels like 2000 pounds.

Try doing pullups, climbing a 30' rope, run 3 miles, etc.. with it on and then without. There is a significant difference.

I vividly remember shooting at an IED triggerman one day. He popped his IED, fired a long burst from an AK (didnt hit anything), and took off running. He was dressed all in black, like a ninja from a bad movie. He was about 200m away and running at an angle in my field of view as fast as he could to get away. I did my best to lead him and sqeeze off well-aimed rounds, but I missed. We all missed him. Fortunately his IED was dug too deep in the side of a ditch and only splattered a HMMWV with mud and rang the driver's and the gunner's bell pretty good.

Since our HMMMVs were stuck on trail heading through farm fields with irrigation ditches, there was no way to pursue, except by foot, and there was no way we could run after him with any speed. He was like a gazelle and we were pissed off rhinos. (Running after people is generally a bad idea anyways). He was long gone by the time we got to the cluster of structures he disappeared from view in. And of course the women and children didnt see anything and wondered why the Americans just started shooting.

But my flak and SAPI plates were near and dear to my heart and I would take the protection over the lower speed and endurance with rare exception. Especially for MOUT, they are worth the weight in gold.

[Battlefront.com]

As others have said, you can't get something for nothing. Two men, equally fit, one with 80 lbs of gear and another with 10 lbs... it's no contest. The guy with the lighter load will be able to best the guy with the heavier load. Where things get more variable is when you start comparing different physical fitness levels and the tasks being done.

For example, an overweight and out of shape guy with nothing but a speedo on will tire out a heck of a lot faster than an inshape guy with a full combat load if they were both instructed to sprint 50m.

Another example would be two guys of equal fitness walking down the street, one with a speedo and the other with a full combat load. For all practical purposes, there probably is no difference. But 4 hours into the walk if someone yelled "RUN FOR YOUR LIVES", it is probable that all else being equal the guy in the speedo could run faster and further than the guy who has been encased in gear in 120 deg sun all day long.

So what you have here are some extreme examples. For the most part if you move US soldiers around in CM in a reasonable manner, and they have a good Fitness rating, they shouldn't get to the point of combat ineffective. But if you try to have them sprint a couple hundred meters... well, it wouldn't be such a great idea. Better to break it up into smaller moves and allow some reset time inbetween.

Steve

[SgtMuhammed]

Thank you for the speedo image that is now stuck in my brain Steve. I could have gone all day without that.

[Imperial Grunt]

I would imagine that the average Syrian soldier would be like the average Iraqi. Most younger Iraqi insurgents are not models of fitness, but they grew up playing soccer and they can move out if sufficiently motivated. And they can outrun US soldiers and Marines encumbered with their armor and gear, just about any day.

Not to mention that they usually know where they are running too, which makes them faster as well.

Older Syrians would be less fit.