Mercenaries

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Vern_S:

fytinghellfish, there are a number of examples that have made there way to the internet such as the Blackwater Sniper and the Blackwater in Najaf videos on YouTube which clearly show highly armed non-military forces, aka Merc's, in Iraq taking "Offensive" action, some alongside US Military.

Yup, and they were defending the facilities and personnel that they were contracted to defend. I still don't see how that makes them mercenaries. I've never heard of Blackwater - or any other group - taking and kind of offensive action. Sure, they fire back, but that doesn't make them mercenaries.

I highly suggest you hop over to militaryphotos.net for an education.

[Guinnessman]

Hi all,

just a minor clarification: when talking about mercenaries, people always seem to drag the Ghurkas into it.

Gurkhas aren't mercenaries. They swear an oath of loyalty to the British crown, and are an integrated part of the British army. Several members of my family have served with them, and rate them very highly. Just to clarify!

[MikeyD]

Civilians with guns getting payed big buck in a warzone to do work the Army would do if only they had a draft army to pull manpower stocks from. About one third as many have been killed (by a rough count) as conventional U.S. military. I can't see why you have such a prejudice against the use of the term mercenary. Other people in the theatre seem to have dibs on 'foreign fighter' so we can't use that term. Okay okay, lets agree they're 'contract security consultants' . And 'contract security consultant' , in iraq at least = 'mercenary'.

[Vern_S]

In an age of political correctness the term "Mercenary" has an ugly stigma associated with it so they need to project a gentler, kinder vision of themselves so now we have "Security Consultants", "Private Military Company" or whatever.

They are gun's for hire either way you look at it.

[Londoner]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

I still don't see how that makes them mercenaries. I've never heard of Blackwater - or any other group - taking and kind of offensive action.

Because they don't take "offensive" action they're not mercenaries!?!? That's a ridiculous definition!

[ParaBellum]

I can't see how the personel of Blackwater and other firms can be called anything else than "mercenaries". Their motivation to take part in an armed conflict is clearly governed by the desire for private fincancial gain. The distinction between offensive and defensive actions in that matter is totally irrelevant.

[Holman]

It's really simple: if the parent company is based in the US or Western Europe, they're "contractors." If it's based anywhere else, they're "mercenaries."

[ParaBellum]

Why does this sort of newspeak always remind me of Black Adder?

" Darling: So you see Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.

Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!

Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies...

Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for blighty!"

[Dirtweasle]

Black Adder, he's very bad indeed.

Thing is though there is a difference between the Mercs that doing guard jobs and doing protection either people or places in the employ of like KBR maybe or something along those lines which is going on and the notion that we are employing mercs in combat roles which is not.

[Holman]

We're employing contractors to drive and ride shotgun for convoys that are frequently subject to attack. We're using them to mount guard in a city that experiences several major war-related incidents a day. Maybe it's not technically offensive ops, but it's not exactly rear-area duty.

[LordCalvert]

They fight for whoever pay them the most money. Just like in the good old middle ages up to about the 18th century before conscript armies. One thought springs to mind: There has to be some insergent with a ****load of cash ready to invest?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by LordCalvert:

They fight for whoever pay them the most money. Just like in the good old middle ages up to about the 18th century before conscript armies.

It didn't completely end there, eg. French Foreign Legion still is a mercenary force.

[Vern_S]

Ok, this is real easy, as I said on the first page;

"The 1949 Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) does not recognize the difference between defense contractors and PMCs; it defines a category called supply contractors. If the supply contractor has been issued with a valid identity card from the armed forces which they accompany, they are entitled to be treated as prisoners of war upon capture (GCIII Article 4.1.4). If, however, the contractor engages in combat, he/she can be classified as a mercenary by the captors under the 1997 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) Article 47.c, unless falling under an exemption to this clause in Article 47. If captured contractors are found to be mercenaries, they are unlawful combatants and lose the right to prisoner of war status."

The important line is this, "If, however, the contractor engages in combat, he/she can be classified as a mercenary by the captors under the 1997 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) Article 47.c".

It doesn't say "Offensive Combat" it just says "Combat". Unless there is some "Exemption" in Article 47, which I am trying to research, then as soon as they fire a weapon, even in self-defense, they are Mercenaries.

[Vern_S]

More interesting info.

From " Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)"

Article 47.-Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

2. A mercenary is any person who:

( a ) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

( b ) Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

( c ) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;

( d ) Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

( e ) Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

( f ) Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

The Geneva Convention appears to not distinguish between Offensive and Defensive roles. If the PMC personnel partake in hostilities, even in a defensive posture, then they are Mercenaries.

[Calvin]

Gents,

I must identify myself as one of the primary culprits here who got this heated discussion going. Have to say, I meant what I said and feel very strongly about this issue.

But I also have to say that most of you, even those with whom I don't agree, have earned my respect both for the general civility of the discussion and the impressive level of knowledge displayed here--- including historical contexts and the laws of war.

There are clearly some learned souls on these boards and I appreciate your input.

Best,

Calvin

[Pinetree]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LordCalvert:

They fight for whoever pay them the most money. Just like in the good old middle ages up to about the 18th century before conscript armies.

It didn't completely end there, eg. French Foreign Legion still is a mercenary force. </font>

[PLM2]

A lot of the so called 'mercenary' companies have unarmed truckers or at least unarmed in the past. Stupid, yes, I guess thats what you have to do to avoid being called a mercenary

[Vern_S]

In order to gain protection under the Geneva Convention civilians must remain unarmed and take no hostile action, period. As soon as they pick up a weapon they lose that protection.

Not all employee's of these companies would be considered Mercenaries, i.e. the unarmed truck drivers. Only those that take arm's and go hostile with them.

The whole conflict in Iraq is one big gray zone and much of this discussion is "moot" to a large degree given the fact that if a PMC contractor is captured by the enemy they would not be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention anyway, unless someone slipped in a clause that allows Islamic Extremist the right to torture and behead at will.

[ July 21, 2007, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Vern_S ]

[YankeeDog]

Moot. Much of this discussion is moot, not "mute".

Sorry. Pet peeve.

[ChrisND]

Well, technically I don't hear any sounds coming from the BB, so it IS kinda Mute.

[Vern_S]

It's late, I'm tired. Mute is now Moot...

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Vern_S:

It's late, I'm tired. Mute is now Moot...

Thanks. I know it's anal grammarnazi of me to nitpick like that, but it grates my nerves. Right up there with fingernails on a chalkboard, and other grammatical inanities like "ATM Machine".

[Vern_S]

No Problem...

[acrashb]

Originally posted by Vern_S:

I'm not wanting to get into a dissertation on the definition of "Mercenary" and what entities should be classified as such.

[...]

according to the Geneva Convention a contractor from a "Private Military Company", which Blackwater is, who engages in combat is classified as a Mercanary.

Didn't take you long to do a 180.

In simple terms, mercenarys take service in a foreign army. BW doesn't do that. Mercs take and hold ground in offensive ops, act as cadre, etc. BW doesn't do that. They do local stability ops, keep bad guys away from your corp head office, escort high-value targets from an airport to a "safe zone", etc.

[acrashb]

Originally posted by Calvin:

They observe none of the professionalism or professional ethics of US soldiers and marines.

[...]

Many of them decided to leave active duty in order to accept the high salaries that these private outfits provide.

[...]

Blackwater employees are people willing to kill another human being for a !%^!^$@#$^ paycheck.

[...]

with their designer sunglasses, HK submachineguns,

In order:

1) Bull. You haven't met them; I have. The ones I have met were squared-away.

2)In other words, regular (actually special, since that's the recruiting pool for BW) forces are underpaid. I don't know about you, but when I'm underpaid, I look for a way to change that.

3) how does this make them different in nature from any armed security guard at mall or driving an armoured car full of money? Do you hate mall ninjas too?

4)sounds like gear-envy to me. Reg forces are welcome to buy designer glasses if they feel the need, and some (very few, who wants a 9mm sub-gun any more?) are issued HK.