ATGMs

[Holo]

How much time is needed for Javelin crew to pack up after firing, and change position? My view of this matter is that one of the advantages of Fire and Forget, if this period is reasonably short, you can relocate quickly and thus be harder to spot by enemy. Maybe I'm all wrong on this, but if not, it would be really nice to see in CM:SF Javelin crews have an option to behave something like Shoot and Scoot, that is, move out of cover, take a shot, and hide again.

[Battlefront.com]

Holo,

How much time is needed for Javelin crew to pack up after firing, and change position?

Couple of seconds.

Maybe I'm all wrong on this, but if not, it would be really nice to see in CM:SF Javelin crews have an option to behave something like Shoot and Scoot, that is, move out of cover, take a shot, and hide again.

We'll see how testing goes. May or may not be necessary.

Steve

[hellfish]

Is launch signature going to be modelled at all? The Javelin has a relatively low launch signature (little smoke and dust kicked up) but other older systems often have more.

Will units be able to target and suppress the guys behind the CLUs of SACLOS-type ATGMs and possibly cause the missile to go awry?

[Battlefront.com]

Launch singanture is simulated in two ways:

1. Chance of being spotted

2. Backblast effect

The Javelin can be fired from an enclosed space, none of the other ATGMs can AFAIK.

Disruption of the gunner is possible. However, I am not sure we can simulate the Javelin as anything but fire and forget against targets that it can lock onto. For other situatoins, like trying to take out something in a building, the Javelin has to fire manually. The missile is quite fast and, as you say, the launch signature is very small. Effectively I think this means there is a low chance of suppressing a Javelin team during firing. But we'll have to see how this shakes out in testing.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Steve,

According to FM 3-06.11, chapter 7, Most US recoilless and ATGM weapons can be fired from inside some structures.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

speaking of Russian tanks, have you seen the concepts for the new Russian tank codenamed "Black Eagle"? 12 shots a minute, pretty scary.

According to Wikipedia the Leclerc tank is supposed to be able to do that, and it's 15 years old now... So I'd guess that this figure is only impressive when you compare it with tanks without an autoloader (M1, Leopard 2...) or whith an old and not very well designed autoloader (T-72...).

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Glukx Ouglouk:

an old and not very well designed autoloader (T-72...).

I recall an interesting comment on the number of Russian T-72 gunners who were missing their [left?] arm. Apparently the T-72 autoloader has a nasty habit of occasionally trying to stuff the gunner in the chamber.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Steve,

According to FM 3-06.11, chapter 7, Most US recoilless and ATGM weapons can be fired from inside some structures.

Ya - but things like having to remove the glass, severe wall & structural damage etc... leads me to suspect that it isn't something you *want* to do without due preperation and thought.

The LAW is more of a grenade launcher than a ATGM or recoiless rifle and is the only one that doesn't seem to bring the roof down in small frame buildings.

[J Ruddy]

(a) To fire a TOW from inside a room, the following safety precautions must be taken (Figure 7-10).

The building must be of sturdy construction.

The ceiling should be at least 7 feet high.

The floor size of the room should be at least 15 by 15 feet; larger, if possible.

At least 20 square feet of room ventilation should exist, preferably to the rear of the weapon. An open 7- by 3-foot door is sufficient. Removing sections of interior partitions can create additional ventilation.

All glass must be removed from the windows, and all small loose objects removed from the room, the room should be cleaned.

All personnel in the room should be forward of the rear of the TOW.

All personnel in the room should wear ballistic eye protection and earplugs.

A clearance of 9 inches (23 centimeters) must be between the launch tube and aperture from which it is fired. (See AR 385-62 and AR 385-63 for more detailed safety information.)

Figure 7-10. TOW fired from inside a room.

( To fire a Dragon from inside a room, the following safety precautions must be taken.

The building must be of sturdy construction.

The ceiling should be at least 7 feet high.

The floor size should be at last 15 by 15 feet; larger, if possible.

At least 20 square feet of ventilation should exist (room openings), preferably to the rear of the weapon. An open 7- by 3-foot door would provide minimum ventilation.

All glass should be removed from windows, and small loose objects removed from the room.

The room should be clean or the floors must be wet to prevent dust and dirt (kicked up by the backblast) from obscuring the vision of other soldiers in the room.

All personnel in the room must be forward of the rear of the weapon.

All personnel in the room must wear ballistic eye protection and earplugs.

At least a 6-inch clearance must exist between the launch tube and aperture from which it is fired.

[Battlefront.com]

The LAW is outdated, as is the Dragon and TOW-1. The US has at its disposal the AT-4 (which, like the LAW, is not guided) and Javelin. No ground mount TOW-2 and no SMAW. The former is not used ground mount thanks to the Javelin, and the SMAW is still (at this time anyway) a Marines weapon.

Steve

[Capt. Toleran]

Will there be Bradley fighting vehicles in the game? They used to fire Tows, what do they fire now? I remember a Bradley unleashing a missle on a house in one of the videos of Fallujah fighting (and in quite close proximity too).

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The LAW is outdated, as is the Dragon and TOW-1. The US has at its disposal the AT-4 (which, like the LAW, is not guided) and Javelin. No ground mount TOW-2 and no SMAW. The former is not used ground mount thanks to the Javelin, and the SMAW is still (at this time anyway) a Marines weapon.

Steve

Actually, the LAW is still being issued.

[MikeyD]

I can't locate my references, but i heard there was a program to replace HEAT warheads on obsolete LAWS in favor of HE warheads for Iraq duty. The old LAW was never much of an AT weapon anyway. I heard the same thing about the obsolete TOW-1 missiles, that they'd be getting HE or Squash Head bunker buster warheads for use as infantry support with the TOW Stryker. I haven't heard a peep about whether that program ever got off the ground.

Something else I can't find my references on, I believe I read there's an AT-4 variant in service that uses a ballast ejection mechanism specifically for firing inside structures. Quit a different animal from the RCCL backblast AT-4!

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The LAW is outdated, as is the Dragon and TOW-1. The US has at its disposal the AT-4 (which, like the LAW, is not guided) and Javelin. No ground mount TOW-2 and no SMAW. The former is not used ground mount thanks to the Javelin, and the SMAW is still (at this time anyway) a Marines weapon.

Steve

The Syrians may have TOW or a close analogue. Exact weapon types aren't so important as the concept of being fired from an enclosure.

Additionally, that is an Army FM, so it deals exclusively with Army weapons. SMAW-D is "type classified and in production" for the Army as the M141 Bunker Defeat Munition.

Weighing 15.7 lbs, it's a SMAW rocket in a one-shot telescopic launcher.

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

Will there be Bradley fighting vehicles in the game? They used to fire Tows, what do they fire now? I remember a Bradley unleashing a missle on a house in one of the videos of Fallujah fighting (and in quite close proximity too).

Unless something has gone very badly wrong, I don't think that we'll be seeing Bradleys inside houses.

[Battlefront.com]

M2, M3, and M7 variant Bradleys are in for sure. Yes, they still use TOWs. I don't know what the inventory of unmodified TOW-1 rounds, but we're assuming modified (i.e. upgraded) and new production TOW-2 rounds are available.

LAW is still in frontline use? That I did not know. We're not likely to add it unless the use is significant within Stryker units.

I am aware that the SMAW is in use with Army forces on a limited basis, but last time I checked we didn't feel it was enough to include.

Now, take what I've said about stuff with a little pinch of salt. We are trying to remain flexible about what we add based on new information. Remember, when we first started making CM:SF the first battalion of the first brigade was undergoing training. Instead of locking in the game content based on what was we are trying to keep it open to what might be. Obviously at some point we have to close up consideration for new stuff, but right now it is still open (though not nearly as much as before).

To give you guys some idea of what we've changed over time, here's a quick list off the top of my head:

Slat armor for Strykers

Rev B of the Stryker Mortar Carrier

M1114 based Humvees as stock Humvee

M4 w/203 replacing M16 w/203

M110 replacing modified M4 for Designated Marksman

BFT for dismounts

AT-14 and RPG-29 added to Syrian side

It's a crazy time to be trying to simulate modern warfare. Since we're crazy, it all makes sense

Steve

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Glukx Ouglouk:

an old and not very well designed autoloader (T-72...).

I recall an interesting comment on the number of Russian T-72 gunners who were missing their [left?] arm. Apparently the T-72 autoloader has a nasty habit of occasionally trying to stuff the gunner in the chamber. </font>

[hellfish]

The LAW is in service, but IIRC its mostly to replace the M136 specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan. The M136 is a heavy weapon and only used now to blow holes in walls - the LAW does pretty much the same thing but weighs less.

The Marines were the prime proponent for the reissue and I have to admit that I haven't seen the Stryker guys with any of them. This might be either because the rounds are kept on the Stryker or the Army hasn't issued the weapons to the Stryker guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW

[Battlefront.com]

Have I mentioned that I hate how quickly things are changing these days? Hmmmph!

In general I would be surprised to see Stryker infantry walking around with either LAWs or AT-4s on their person. There is no need to carry one unless they have a problem, and if they have a problem like that they'll have the time to go back to the Stryker and pick up something with a little more bang.

Steve

[hellfish]

In any environment with an armor threat I think it would be SOP to carry at least two AT4s whenever you dismount.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Have I mentioned that I hate how quickly things are changing these days? Hmmmph!

In general I would be surprised to see Stryker infantry walking around with either LAWs or AT-4s on their person. There is no need to carry one unless they have a problem, and if they have a problem like that they'll have the time to go back to the Stryker and pick up something with a little more bang.

Steve

The TO&Es I have seen on modern US Mech infantry is that a M136 LAW is carried with every squad.

[Battlefront.com]

Fisshy,

In any environment with an armor threat I think it would be SOP to carry at least two AT4s whenever you dismount.

Which is why we don't see them in Iraq or Afghanistan

Dietrich, two is certainly a standard number to have, but (apparently) until recently these would have been AT-4s. Many of the Field Manuals are out of date. Even the Stryker TO&E in the 2002/2003 manuals I have is out of date in some areas. Which is why we have such interesting jobs as of late!

Steve

[hellfish]

Exactly... I thought you were talking about in general. My bad. I'll never underestimate you again.

[Battlefront.com]

We'll see if you remember this lesson next week when I spank your Shrike to heck and back (this is a family friendly thread, so taunting must be toned down ).

Seriously though, it is yet another example of Cold War Hangover. Kinda like showing up to a wedding in a tux only to find out it's being held at a nudist colony. Lesson learned is to look at the invite more closely!

Steve

[hellfish]

I have no idea what you said besides "spank".

[Holo]

StrategyPage:

"The range of the TOW is also being extended to 4,500 meters, and once the wire spool is eliminated, even longer ranges will be possible. Coincidentally, the wire control system is being replaced for reason's beyond the military's control. The last supplier for the control wire went out of business three years ago, and the stockpile of wire the army bought, is just about gone. So a radio control system is being built, to replace the old wire system. This is cheaper than paying a large subsidy to get someone to revive manufacturing of the special wire. Radio control systems are a lot more reliable and efficient than they were three decades ago, and the troops have been asking for a wireless version of the TOW for some time."