Dr.Jones Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Hi, just created the brz file editor, i'm just a little dissapointed in SF structure of data, no support for modding, or at least support for adding new stuff (as seen in this instance), all you can do is replace wav files, skins or replacing the old units/vehicles. Havent seen the balistics or penetration definition files, what a shame. In TOW you can do pretty much anything, add new units, etc. br. Dr.Jones 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xipe66 Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 That's the way BF rolls, for better or worse. All logic and unit/weapon/armor values have always been hard coded in the CM games. Textures and sounds have been the only things you can mod. BTW - Are you saying the 3D models are moddable? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 BTS has a long history (all of the CM games) of not allowing users to modify balistics, penetration, 3D models or adding new units. This has always been well known and communicated endlessly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Jones Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Xipe66: BTW - Are you saying the 3D models are moddable? The format is binary mdr (few 100k size). Yes it can be changed if we decipher this format. br. Dr.Jones 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xipe66 Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Wow, that's awesome. And you're awesome for making an extraction tool less than 48 hours after release! Please share it once you think it's working properly. Hopefully someone privy to various 3D file formats can have a stab at the .mdr files. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 The lack of mod support is unfortunate. I think CM would really benefit from it. Operation Flashpoint started out without any real mod support, but after the devs released some of their tools the community exploded with content. You can download units and equipment to simulate pretty much every major army. I dont know whats keeping them from adding mod support. Users being able to add units would take care of all the requests for rare or unfitting units. If possible I'd much rather have mod tools then extra modules. While modules might make a little extra money... mods can definitly sell more base game copies. Have they stated why they dont support mods (other then textures and such)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-E Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 BFC DOES support appearance/sound modding. BFC does NOT support changes to stats. BFC is currently working on a list of files and directory structures for modding. As I understand it, modding will consist of just adding a subdirectory and plopping in correctly named files. I think a little patience on this issue is warranted as BFC is dealing with uninformed people's expectations (guilty as charged here) and sorting out valid bugs from those. (from what I'm reading, a whole lot of the expectation dissappointments were openly discussed during the development and users' inputs were sought and received, but many like myself didn't follow the development closely enough and expected a "CMx1 Plus" instead of a "CMx2" ...we got a CMx2. I'd guess that as time goes by, many of us will realize CMx2 is as good a system, if not better, than CMx1, but it is not CMx1.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Does that mean we'll be able to add our own units? ...Or does it mean we'll only be able to change the way the current units look and sound? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinetree Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by SmithyG: ...Or does it mean we'll only be able to change the way the current units look and sound? Yup. Unless they have a change of heart(which is not likely ), it's always been like this with CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becket Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Pinetree: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SmithyG: ...Or does it mean we'll only be able to change the way the current units look and sound? Yup. Unless they have a change of heart(which is not likely ), it's always been like this with CM. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Dogface: BTS has a long history (all of the CM games) of not allowing users to modify balistics, penetration, 3D models or adding new units. This has always been well known and communicated endlessly. In other words, no you can not add new units. You will however, if any of the previous Combat Mission games are any indication, be able to mod the way sounds sound and appearances appear (short of changing the underlying 3D model). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Pinetree: Yup. Unless they have a change of heart(which is not likely ), it's always been like this with CM. So this is a decision on their part? I just cant see any negative points to allowing us to add our own units. I'd really like to know the reasoning behind the decision... ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razgovory Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by SmithyG: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pinetree: Yup. Unless they have a change of heart(which is not likely ), it's always been like this with CM. So this is a decision on their part? I just cant see any negative points to allowing us to add our own units. I'd really like to know the reasoning behind the decision... ? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Rudd Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by SmithyG: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pinetree: Yup. Unless they have a change of heart(which is not likely ), it's always been like this with CM. So this is a decision on their part? I just cant see any negative points to allowing us to add our own units. I'd really like to know the reasoning behind the decision... ? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Reason for not allowing extensive modding is twofold, I think: They are planning some expansions. First up will be Marines. Would suck for BFC if someone modded them in. And what hurts BFC financially will sooner or later hurt us too. Second one is more important to us, the customer. Cheating. Open the files up and all sorts of goings on are possible. In CM I have never even entertained the thought that my opponent was cheating. If no user mods is the price to pay for that ease of mind, I'm happy to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I dont think modding has hurt the expansion sales of other games. Its likely only helped sell more of the original game, which adds more potential costumers for the expantion packs. I've purchased a couple games only because they had mods I wanted to play. Again Operation Flashpoint is a good example of what user content can do for a game and company. Imagine how many players would be interested in CMSF if their favorite equipment or setting was modded in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Well not being able do that detailed modding never hurt the original CM. Probably won't hurt CMSF. Sure dosen't seem to be helping TOW. A good game is a good game, modding or not. At some point you have to just play it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I suspect the issue is that BTS / BFC sees their product somewhere to the "simulation" side of the "game" to "simulation" spectrum. The accuracy of the underpinning model is of great importance, so to use a CMAK example they are happy for you to change the colours of a vehicle (hence the snow, Normandy, etc. mods) but not the critical armour protection or armament penetration values. No one wants a T-72 you can knock out with an M-16 but I suspect they wont mind if you change the colour of the T-72. Similarly I suspect if they did allow people to modify the underpining technical data (or create their own units) someone would then start asking them for support if it didn't work. Questions like: "I've just tweaked the armour values of the M1 and now the game doesn't run" or "The Leopard 2A6 that I just made can't penetrate a M113, please fix" would no doubt receive a fairly blunt response. Lastly there could be some scope for "cheating" if you modded all your vehicles to be invulnerable and your opponent would certainly become disappointed if they couldn't achieve reasonable results. [ July 29, 2007, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 You can say that CM is succesful without better mod support, but my opinion is that it would be more succesful with it. Not much could help TOW ( I didnt care for the demo). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xipe66 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Siding with Smithy here. And Operation Flashpoint has shown that the cream rises to the top (and it's also your choice wether to use it or not, so it's all good). The same thing has been true for mod-friendly games before it - moddability is good, both for the game and the sales (Quake being the most notable entry, that also more or less got the trend seriously on the road). EDIT: Paradox' games and also the Total War-series are also a good examples how this seldom goes wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmithyG Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Originally posted by gibsonm: No one wants a T-72 you can knock out with an M-16 ...You're right, no one would want that. So even if it was made it wouldnt be used. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Originally posted by Xipe66: Siding with Smithy here. And Operation Flashpoint has shown that the cream rises to the top (and it's also your choice wether to use it or not, so it's all good). Who wants to drink ten quarts of curdled catpiss to get to a couple of ounces of cream? The danger is further splintering of the community, which I personally would feel would be less than desirable. Especially for customer support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xipe66 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Who wants to drink ten quarts of curdled catpiss to get to a couple of ounces of cream? Just imagine how much less bitching we would have had about Úber-StuGs and russian guns' penetration capabilities. Oh, and the highly popular Maus mod. Humor aside, I do believe it's good in the long run, though. Cat piss included, as some of it might turn out to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 No it would be used. Eventually someone may have cracked the game and used it to win. Feel free to skin, but the internals are to be left alone. There have been multipel threads about this in the past. In a wargame like Combat Mission, we don't want changes without us doing it. Cases were made in CMX1, and values were changed, but we are the control point. Ditto for vehicles. We will introduce modules with different forces. We will nto open it for people to add things in. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Originally posted by Xipe66: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Who wants to drink ten quarts of curdled catpiss to get to a couple of ounces of cream? Just imagine how much less bitching we would have had about Úber-StuGs and russian guns' penetration capabilities. Oh, and the highly popular Maus mod. Humor aside, I do believe it's good in the long run, though. Cat piss included, as some of it might turn out to be. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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