Modding of CMSF

[SmithyG]

Its not that we dont respect their decision, we just dont agree with it. Especially Steves take on other games and companies that support modding. Considering that CMSF is not likely to be the last game from BFC I think its important to continue make a case for better mod support. Even if we wont ever see it in CMSF.

[Battlefront.com]

SmithyG,

Its not that we dont respect their decision, we just dont agree with it. Especially Steves take on other games and companies that support modding. Considering that CMSF is not likely to be the last game from BFC I think its important to continue make a case for better mod support. Even if we wont ever see it in CMSF.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. When someone pays $45 for a game and they don't need another one from us for 7 years, we'll not be here to make that sequel. It's really that simple. The rest of what I said also applies, but it's kinda irrelevant if we're out of busines.

Note, that if we had the kind of sales that Flashpoint had, we wouldn't care. I can tell you right now that if someone gave me a couple million to open up the game engine to modding, I'd have no problem doing that. Retirement at my age is quite appealing

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SmithyG:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...

Steve

Operation Flashpoint was published in 2001 and had a huge following up untill the sequel was released in 2007. Thats 6 years and the sequel was based on the same "disposible" game engine. When it came out it didnt support mods, the tools werent even released in the first year IIRC. It sold more copies after the tools were released then it did in the first 6 months. You're really misguided on points regarding Flashpoint and other games who've allowed modding. </font>

[Battlefront.com]

We will get the tools to unpack and repack the BRZs as soon as we can. We're a tad bit busy with some other stuff right now But be assured, the tools will be made available to you that will allow yo to mod all textures and sounds.

Steve

[dima]

Yep, the way OFP mods have been handled was a complete disarray. That's why I hardly ever got any.

The only good example I know of a successfull mod - Falcon 4

[SmithyG]

You make the same assumptions as in your previous post, Steve. To which i did reply.

Note that mod support helped Flashpoint achieve those kinds of sales

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

No thanks.

Honestly, I dont know how many total conversions were completed. I can tell you that at least a hundred high quality addons have been released. Look up the COC artillery, one of the best additions to any game, ever! ...in my humble opinion that is, heh

If you didnt want to play those mods you wouldnt have made an effort. Which mostly refutes your point.

[Michael Dorosh]

Doesn't refute my point at all. I wanted to play them, there was no way to track them, and no way to get them completed because no one was paying for them. It was all volunteer work, hence, no impetus to ever finish it. Most never bothered.

I downloaded the COC artillery stuff, never got it to work, had no interest in pursuing it very far. The stuff I did want - Operation Northstar, for one - was done by some guy out of his basement who had a real life, too bad for the rest of us, and so half the mods got finished and the website kind of lingered for a few years.

The stuff that did get finished varied in quality - I had some truly horrible Sherman mods in my list, offset by the Sicily mod which was great, for which there were no scenarios beyond the introductory. Had some great Tigers and Maus models, but nothing to shoot with them (didn't matter, the OFP armour model was so ridiculous that enough hits by any kind of weapon was an AFV kill).

The Jurassic Park mods were fun, but unfinished and buggy (T-Rex shouldn't be able to run up the stairs of a 2-story bungalow).

The Falklands mod and the Vietnam mod had varying degrees of completion; I could at least get opposing squads to shoot each other in Vietnam, and some good looking islands and a helicopter to fly in and check it out.

But no one, it seemed, had the time or inclination to do anything to a true completion that interested me, and moreover, the thousands of little mods not inserted into the total conversions just created confusion and long strings of everybody's crap in the vehicle and squad lists so that when the time came to create one's own scenarios, they had to first sort the wheat from the chaff. God help you if you tried to post it for others to use, and try and remember where you got your panzergrenadiers from, and that Tiger, and the Jeep, and include it all in the documentation so others can download the same mods in order to use your scenario.

Like I said, no thanks.

[-E]

I'm glad BFC has done it this way from the start. Granted, when CMBB was coming out, I was severely disappointed in the short-sighted exclusion of motorcycle riding horses, but in the long run I could see their point (once you have motorcycle riding horses, there's no point in EVER buying another game).

[SmithyG]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Like I said, no thanks.

If you took that same attitude towards CMSF you would be saying no thanks to BFC as well. Its not perfect, no. Especially not when it first began, but with time most of the issues you bring up were mitigated if not eliminated. Dedicated websites for addons popped up (which are still around) and addon packs were created so that mission makers would have an easy time. I already mentioned that plenty of high quality addons were released, you not being interested in them doesnt change that.

You only need to look at the community it built to see that it was a positive addition for the game.

[ July 30, 2007, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: SmithyG ]

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Actually Michael, we're going to releaes our "Exploder" program, which allows you to unpack the BRZ file into regular BMP and WAVs in their native structure. That's easier than trying to document the whole thing I'd upload the one we use, but I'm pretty sure that one is for internal use only. When I have one sanctioned for distribution I'll let you know! Should be soon.

That's great!

And what happened to the idea of multiple texture-sets per unit? Will the game look for alternative filenumbers (similiar to the winter-sets in CMx1), or is it fixed to one texture-set/soundfile per model/effect?

[Battlefront.com]

SmithyG,

Note that mod support helped Flashpoint achieve those kinds of sales

No, a multi-million Dollar advertising budget and tons of retail muscle got them those sales And if the sales didn't materialize... Bohemia might have gone out of business but EA (or whoever it was that published them, I forget now) would have been fine. They could afford the risk, we can not.

And it isn't like we are risk averse. We were the first to go to the Internet. We make games that few people like (marketwide) and have relatively high production costs compared to other games in our niche. Opening up our game engine to freeform modding is suicide, plain and simple.

If our work and your ass were on the line you might think differently. But you have zero investment (time or money) and no risk. It's hard to have a discussion like this when the stakes are so completely lopsided.

It's a dead issue. Always has been, always will be.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Steiner14,

No, there are no extra slots for much of anything as far as I know. There isn't much need for it except for vehicles. And that would require coding the game to randomly assign textures based on what is available. That's technically possible to do, but with texture sets for a single vehicle weighin in at several MB in size, even a 250MB card (with everything else it is asked to load) fills up pretty quickly.

Steve

[Pinetree]

How about decals instead?Give each vehicle it's own decals so you could have different numbered tanks etc.They're not too VRAM intensive if I recall...

[gibsonm]

The problem with that them becomes sync'ing it with the brief and the units chosen.

E.g. If your scenario brief says 2 Platoon, A Company then the decals need to be different to if it refers 2 Platoon, B Company, etc.

Also you need to match the decals to units that you select, so the Pl Comd needs a different set of decals to his Sgt, etc. if they are just random its not worth the effort.

[SmithyG]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

No, a multi-million Dollar advertising budget and...

Instead of making an argument against community content, you made one in support of marketing. Which is funny since community content gets you free marketing!

Nothings changed in your argument since my last post on the second page, which covers all your major points.

[Pinetree]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

The problem with that them becomes sync'ing it with the brief and the units chosen.

E.g. If your scenario brief says 2 Platoon, A Company then the decals need to be different to if it refers 2 Platoon, B Company, etc.

Also you need to match the decals to units that you select, so the Pl Comd needs a different set of decals to his Sgt, etc. if they are just random its not worth the effort.

You could designate it in the editor. Remember how the fonts were in a .bmp in CMx1? You could do the same thing here, tell the editor it's 2 Pl, B Coy

and it would type on the the decal 2/B etc.

[Pandur]

iam quiet happy that there an no new vehicle mods or so for that game and the other CM titles. iam pretty sure the stuff wouldnt fit into the game as it would if the designers did it, like M2strikers wich resemble m113 vulcans from flashpoint with pimped damage and "everything", at the worst end.

nono, better not such mods here in my opinion.

but i would be really happy about a good sound mod...it has to add the CMBB russian "hoooraaa" for aussaulting americas at least

since thats just waves it meight be possible!?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SmithyG:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

No, a multi-million Dollar advertising budget and...

Instead of making an argument against community content, you made one in support of marketing. Which is funny since community content gets you free marketing!

Nothings changed in your argument since my last post on the second page, which covers all your major points. </font>

[SmithyG]

Hi Dorosh!

He's not arguing.

I see, so...

No, a multi-million Dollar advertising budget and tons of retail muscle got them those sales [big Grin] And if the sales didn't materialize... Bohemia might have gone out of business but EA (or whoever it was that published them, I forget now) would have been fine. They could afford the risk, we can not...

Doesnt fit the definition of an argument?

a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

The only thing thats not argumentative is his statement that they've decided not to support large scale modding. I'm certainly not trying to convince him that they did the opposite and are just not aware of it yet.

[Battlefront.com]

SmithyG,

Instead of making an argument against community content, you made one in support of marketing. Which is funny since community content gets you free marketing!

With no product to sell, who the heck cares?

Nothings changed in your argument since my last post on the second page, which covers all your major points.

Right, because you're still wrong

Look, I don't know how to say this any clearer. We know A LOT more about this than you do, and we aren't into suicide. You're approaching this as someone that wants something for nothing, we're approaching this as guys who have been in this industry since the early 1990s (which is a LONG time for this crazy biz). We are still here because we know how to surive (and thrive, I might add). You can take your theories and go start up your own company and prove us wrong.

Either that or you could put your money where your mouth is and guarrantee us that we'll make more money by doing your strategy than ours. I'll give you the info so you can wire the money to our account. We promse we'll give it back to you if you're right. Just make sure it's got plenty of zeros

Steve

[SmithyG]

With no product to sell, who the heck cares?

The base game is the product. Cant play the mods without the game they were made for.

We know A LOT more about this than you do

Maybe, but its hard to believe when I try and refute your points... and your counter-argument is mainly "you're still wrong". I've tried to make clear through this thread that I'm not making any demands, just hoping you'll consider expanding modding in CMSF or future titles. It doesnt have to be all or nothing.

Anyway, Dude , while it was clear from that start that we wouldnt agree... I didnt expect (or want) you to take things negatively. Which is the impression i get from the "you dont know jack, STFU" style comments. Maybe you took some of what I said the wrong way. Too late to do anything about that now, though. I'm going to drop this argument, so rest easy Steve.

Its 12am and I'm going to sleep.

Goodnight

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SmithyG:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> With no product to sell, who the heck cares?

The base game is the product. Cant play the mods without the game they were made for.

</font>

[SmithyG]

You keep tagging along Dorosh, just hold Steves hand firmly so you dont get lost.

[gibsonm]

Don't worry, someone else will be along in 5 mins to re-raise the same points and try to get Steve, et al to change their minds.

I'm not sure how many times Steve has to say "No we aren't going to do it!" before people read what he says and stop wasting bandwidth on this and other topics.

[Battlefront.com]

SmithyG,

No problem. Just understand that there is a difference between a mass market game and a niche game. We have a limited audience. The only way we can make a living is not by selling them one game that they mod for 7 years, and then have a steady influx of new people interested. Nope, we survive by selling 3-4 games to the same people. If they have no reason to repurchase, we have no way to exist. It's as simple as that.

FPS... totally different story. Especially when they probably spent more in advertising each month than we will for a year. When you're a giant, you can spend money to make money. Doesn't work for us.

Steve