Everything in CMX2

[slysniper]

The funny thing is that just about everything in CMx2 was requested by CMx1 players. From what I can tell some should have been careful what they wished for (or whined for as the case often was ).

Steve

There is the quote. I am so sick of reading about the issues of CMX2, thinking, was not most of this stuff, sugestions from the users of CMX1.

So Steve finially said it, he tried to please you all and in the end he seems to have tried to serve to many masters.

Steve take the system to where you think it needs to go. Whatever game you put out next with this new engine, stop trying to make one game that fits all wants. Look at what is being said, many of the problems are fixable.but the majority of the rest of the issues is the game in its present state seems to be too many type of game concepts all rolled into one. Realtime or WeGo, 1 to 1 detail but wanting large scale battles. game controls like cmx1, no like other real time games, or no I will not learn a new one for cmx2,

make it so we can program our own controls.

The point, one game cannot do it all, no matter how good you are, which you are very good at what you do. The new engine seems to be what you want, focus it to one style of game, then make another to the other style of game. Go crazy, make it for 4 types of play, one for wego, one for real time, one for small level units. one for large scale. Was not that the goal of this new engine.

Focus the game to one style and more success will happen. CMx1 was a great success because you had built the base of what the game focus was on, all the add ons and changes was just minor wants, nothing major changed. This game appears to be everyones wants with no focus on how to make a really good game.

[KNac]

I thinmk you have missed completly... BFC has gone where they wanted to, that much of the things in were old request means absolutly nothing. They HAVEN'T tried to please everything, they have made the game they wanted to do, and released it before time.

RT or WeGo, 1:1 rep. who said they want to make large scale battled? they never pretended to, this game has allways been though at a scale of company sized battles (just like CMx1), if people wants to play brigade size battles is their problem. game controls are not as bad and hotkeys are customizable allready.

I don't udnerstand what's the problem with having RT AND WeGo people, if WeGo is not as good right now is plainly cause bugs and bad TacAI make the playability low and the frustration high. There is no real problem to have both styles.

I repeat, the only real damn problem is this was released too early. CMx1 zealots apart off course.

[dalem]

Originally posted by slysniper:

So Steve finially said it, he tried to please you all and in the end he seems to have tried to serve to many masters.

That's crap. Steve tried to please no one except himself, and that's the way it's been ever since the pre-release days of CM:BO. His attitude has been, from Day One, "Hey you mooks, Charles and I decided to write a game that we wanted to play, and we think there are enough people with similar tastes that we're putting our time and money on the table to invite you along for the ride. Buy a ticket and come on!"

And he was right. And it was a great ride.

And now he's laying out the same invite, and anyone who wants to go along is invited to buy a ticket for a new ride.

But it's not about pleasing too many people, not at all.

-dale

[monkeezgob]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by slysniper:

So Steve finially said it, he tried to please you all and in the end he seems to have tried to serve to many masters.

That's crap. Steve tried to please no one except himself, and that's the way it's been ever since the pre-release days of CM:BO. His attitude has been, from Day One, "Hey you mooks, Charles and I decided to write a game that we wanted to play, and we think there are enough people with similar tastes that we're putting our time and money on the table to invite you along for the ride. Buy a ticket and come on!"

And he was right. And it was a great ride.

And now he's laying out the same invite, and anyone who wants to go along is invited to buy a ticket for a new ride.

But it's not about pleasing too many people, not at all.

-dale </font>

[c3k]

Hmmm,

In my opinion (which I need to state explicitly), it is very obvious that we still haven't seen what CM:SF was supposed to be. I contend that the released version, be it v1.00 or v1.01, was a beta. V1.03 is still a beta. I think we'll enjoy the game when the final version is released. It's unfortunate that BF.C wasted their name and reputation on a release that was quite obviously not ready.

So, all this talk about "the game" is a bit early. We are still waiting for it.

Regards,

Ken

[KNac]

c3k my point enterelly. it's a shame but it's how it is!

have been enjoying it more or less anyway, have yet to try 1.03 though when have some time. but i don't mind waiting some more patches to give serious try (not that i didn't the play the game... i almost finished the campaing and played as lot of the scenarios plus some user made ones, haven't played agaisnt human though; so i know how is the game and which are the problems right now).

[MikeyD]

"So Steve finially said it, he tried to please you all and in the end he seems to have tried to serve to many masters."

That may be partially true, but not in the way you mean. Their new association with Paradox came with expectations and timetables and other crap like that. It turned out to be as painful for them as it was for you. CMSF is the product they wanted to produce but part of the release process turned out to be as bruising as tumbling down a rocky slope! Remember when boxes started shipping days before the scheduled release date? They did not much appreciate that.

KNac, v1.03 was a major fix to the game and a v1.04 with its unknown fixes/features is somewhere on the horizon. What's on your machine isn't so much "how it is" but "how it was".

[Meach]

How it will be is the crux. Pretty polished I imagine. I think they will nail the bugs in short order then everyone will be giving it the thumbs up and stop whining.

Once it's working as intended all the mumps will vanish. Just now it's "Waaaahhhh it ain't perfect, Ma!" "Waaaaahhhh it ain't CMx1!"

Give it some time...sure by patch 1.08 if it's still bugged to hell then get on your high horses about it but as it stands it's in it's infancy.

[slysniper]

I figured I get this type of replies. I hope he can tie it all together also and make the qame function well in whichever option you select to play.

I just think he needs reminded about what makes a good design, it applies to all aspects of life, not just games.

He said long ago he wanted to make a modern combat game. I wanted to see modern combat done also, so I am glad he has tried this area.

Steve has always done it his way. A quility that is needed to be able to see a project like this through.

I just think his statement reads in it his own thoughts. He tried to do so much with this new game, to push it to a new level, to add so much of what was missing. It shows and its not that it cannot happen, it just did not need to all happen within one game.

Defend the game, hope for the best. I just want to see him continue to enjoy making games so I can enjoy his work. Trying to suggest to him how to improve his craft is not a crime from what I understand.

You know someday he might just say "forget you all" could you blame him after reading some of the forum.

[Darren J Pierson]

I think that some of the old customers are saying that BFC has already said "forget you all" and they aren't happy about that. If a customer feels that way (and it certainly is an opinion only) then he or she doesn't care what BFC does in the future along those lines.

The forums aren't that much different than teaching evaluations. Same class, same lectures, same tests and the folks praise you to heaven and damn you to hell for the exact same things. All you can do is look for the useful gems in both the criticisms and the praise.

[Battlefront.com]

Oddly enough, today I was pointed to a thread from two years ago (relating to a recent member flameout) and found this post made on September 8, 2005 by me. Yes, that's right... 2 days shy of two years ago. It was in response to a flameout by a mod guy who went completely nuts based on mostly incorrect assumptions of what CM:SF was going to be. This is the link to the thread in question. The post that follows is rather interesting in light of the hubub of the past few weeks (it is seen on Page 4).

The points have been made well by others, but I would like to round them up:

What we do with CM is what we do with CM. What others do to support CM is what others do to support CM. We take no credit for what others do except for the fact that without us it wouldn't exist in the first place. We deeply appreciate the hard work and dedicated support that people have shown for the game. It means a lot to us personally and it of course means a lot to the community. Community is something that would exist with or without the external projects because the game itself is strong enough to support it. Proof? We had a community before CMBO Beta Demo was released and therefore before any external projects existed. All that has happened since then is that the community has grown and, dare I say, matured (ooo... I am going to regret saying that ). But through it all it has been the strength of the game itself that has made the community what it is. No amount of mods, scenarios, tactical discussions, etc. would keep players around if the game itself was found lacking in some serious way.

The problem we faced when doing CMBB was we realized that we had to start over again, yet we had put so much time and effort into the engine we couldn't afford (yet) to trash it and start over again. I'd also say that we didn't have the experience we needed to know how to form the second engine the way we needed it to be. CMBB gave us that experience and then some. We therefore started the new engine after CMBB as we were doing CMAK. We applied the lessons learned from CMBB to CMAK and got out another great product, equal in scope to the previous two, but in 1 year instead of 2 or 3. However, we knew that was the end of the road for the engine. So the wait between CMAK and the first CMx2 game began the moment CMAK was released.

With the new engine we were faced with two choices. We could have simply updated the graphics engine and pretty much just tweaked the game system, for example doing better artillery handling or fixing something like separating out Suppression from Morale. The end product would have been significantly better than CMx1, but it would be faced with most of the same basic limitations. It also wouldn't push the envelope at all. So we went with the second choice and that was to spend more time to redo the entire game from the ground up. Everything that would have gone into the first option's effort plus tons and tons more stuff. It is going to take us longer to do, but it will be worth it.

As I have said many times before, we do not expect each of you to purchase everything we make, be it a major release or a Module. You didn't all buy the first three games from us either, so expecting anything different would be foolish. We hope that you guys can also understand this. There is no one Battlefront.com customer to cater to so someone is certainly going to not want what we release. Again, the same thing happened with the CMx1 family of games and so the evidence is irrefutable.

We hope that the community holds together during this transition. In fact, we hope that it gets stronger and larger, not to mention more diversified. This is good for everybody in so many ways it isn't really useful to count. Will there be people making addons, modules, and what not for future CMx2 games? Absolutely. We don't doubt that for a second. But will it be the same exact people that supported CMx1 in that way? Some for sure, others not. Just like people only supported CMBB or CMAK or CMBO and not all three. So it is clear that whatever happens with CMx2's customer support and community, it will not be any different than CMx1's customer support and community. Not in the big picture anyway.

As for my treatment of people on this Forum. You are treated in the manner you deserve. I don't care if you have 1 post or 10,000 to your name. I don't care if you have bought one game or all three. I don't care if you have spent 10000 hours supporting our games or merely benefited from the hard work of others. To do otherwise would be to play favorites and that would be wrong. I also don't consider having a friend over who pees on my carpet and throws the beer I handed him at my face to be a friend. I don't care what that person claims to have done for me because at that moment I have some jerk'o assaulting me with the things that I have provided to him. I can forgive and forget if the friend gives me cause to, but I won't sit there and take what no person should have to take simply because that person feels I owe him something. I don't. Or at least I owe that person no more than he owes me. So if someone can't behave, then that is their problem that they are forcing on me and there isn't really any choice for me in terms of how I react. I actually think of myself as pretty laid back and restrained compared to how others would be when placed in the same situation.

Lots of people voice concerns on this Forum. Lots of them are now unsure, or even doubting, that we're going in the right direction. As long as these concerns are voiced constructively I never, ever get my feathers ruffled. Never. So that is a clear indication that the method of the message is what brings about threads like this, not the content of it.

As for the campaign stuff. I'll get into that in other threads in more detail, but we actually haven't changed our vision that much. We believe the big "über" campaigns are not our cup of tea for various reasons. That was our thinking 9 years ago and it is our thinking today. What has changed is the method within that vision. And that is a good thing because it means we can be innovative without compromising principles that we feel must remain in place. It is fine that people disagree with our principles, but since we're on the hook for decisions made... the vision of others comes without ramifications and consequences of the vision. That's why we treat customer feedback seriously and carefully, yet not forget that we should never take it as marching orders.

Well, that's about all on that Check out this other thread for a related discussion:

<font size='>" target="_blank">http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000159Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Dalem,

That's crap. Steve tried to please no one except himself, and that's the way it's been ever since the pre-release days of CM:BO. His attitude has been, from Day One, "Hey you mooks, Charles and I decided to write a game that we wanted to play, and we think there are enough people with similar tastes that we're putting our time and money on the table to invite you along for the ride. Buy a ticket and come on!"

Ultimately that may be true in the sense that we don't add features we don't agree with. However, it is not true in the sense that we don't aim to please. A lot of great ideas have come from customers, even if the way they were used wasn't exactly as they imagined. If we developed CM in a closet, with no connection to our customers, I think CMBO would have been a flop and that would have been the end of Battlefront. Likewise, if we tried to please everybody for the sake of pleasing them we'd also be long since out of business by now.

Steve

[slysniper]

Thanks Steve, for pulling up your old comments on where your direction with this game was going.

Even then it appears you knew how the players and this forum would accept or reject this new work of yours.

I do find your approach to your work and with dealing with the forum or consumers interesting.

I will give you credit in how you handle yourself at most times and can understand when at times you lash back, which normally you do very skillfully. Really has made me smile a few times.

I am patient and hopefully at some point you will make a product that once again will be a must have

in my collection.

When I go car shopping, I have a choice, maybe a sports car, economy gas saver or maybe a luxury car. I could look at full size trucks or light duty trucks, a van or mini van is also a option.

But the designers over the years have learned to provide chooses in concept to fit the needs of the consumer. They could not build one car that will meet all needs or wants. So each type is designed with one focus in mind, not that they do not take concepts from the others. But a certain direction in design is held.

Maybe for you, the direction you wanted to focus on is held, then things are good as far as you see them. I just brought this topic up in wondering "Could not breaking it down into certain styles of consumer standards not make for possible more products, less issues to get one system that can do so much and make for finished products that can be brought to a high quality level."

You will make your choices on what you feel is right. I on the other hand have the easy part, I wait to see if you offer the sports car that is a must have. I have more hope in you work than any other out there, at least the concepts of what your car one day will be have me planning to own one someday.

For now I keep the cars I have running, knowing at some point, something new will take their place.

[ September 07, 2007, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dalem,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That's crap. Steve tried to please no one except himself, and that's the way it's been ever since the pre-release days of CM:BO. His attitude has been, from Day One, "Hey you mooks, Charles and I decided to write a game that we wanted to play, and we think there are enough people with similar tastes that we're putting our time and money on the table to invite you along for the ride. Buy a ticket and come on!"

Ultimately that may be true in the sense that we don't add features we don't agree with. However, it is not true in the sense that we don't aim to please. A lot of great ideas have come from customers, even if the way they were used wasn't exactly as they imagined. If we developed CM in a closet, with no connection to our customers, I think CMBO would have been a flop and that would have been the end of Battlefront. Likewise, if we tried to please everybody for the sake of pleasing them we'd also be long since out of business by now.

Steve </font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by monkeezgob:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by slysniper:

So Steve finially said it, he tried to please you all and in the end he seems to have tried to serve to many masters.

That's crap. Steve tried to please no one except himself, and that's the way it's been ever since the pre-release days of CM:BO. His attitude has been, from Day One, "Hey you mooks, Charles and I decided to write a game that we wanted to play, and we think there are enough people with similar tastes that we're putting our time and money on the table to invite you along for the ride. Buy a ticket and come on!"

And he was right. And it was a great ride.

And now he's laying out the same invite, and anyone who wants to go along is invited to buy a ticket for a new ride.

But it's not about pleasing too many people, not at all.

-dale </font>