Oddball_E8 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 ok, so on a little scenario im designing a us special forces unit (represented by an elite rifle squad, sniper team, company & battallion HQ and a JTAC team) is fighting off a horde of enemy troops. to help them out i gave them air support (first 2 choppers and then 2 planes later on) however, trying to call in air support is pure hell! first off, even with my JTAC team it takes OVER 5½ minutes before they attack! and when they attack they are woefully inaccurate (against infantry at least, but thats all they are facing) now, all the US units are on elite level (forgot to change that when choosing the support so they ended up being elite too, supposed to be normal) now, should it really take that long for an unsupressed, non-hiding, rested and fine elite JTAC team to call in an appache strike on a target they have clear line of sight to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 It's not the calling in, it's the Helicopters arriving on scene. 5.5 mins is outstanding really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 well, if i had close air support in the form of helicopters, i would assume they were within striking distance... at least in the area (since they were allocated to my forces, and not something i called in from a nearby base on a whim) besides... after the first attack it still takes 5 or so minutes for the next attack (by the same chopper... did it fly back to base immediately or what???) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Does it look like at night though...spooky bloody thing. What's the use of that many rounds in one area though? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 well i imagined something more like this (as for attached air support i mean) this does not take 5.5 minutes from threat identification to apache attack (and they even do an overflight, wich seems to surprise the troops) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 PLEASE give the JTACs radios when they are dismounted! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 what? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 The air support has to fly to the area first so that's why it takes so long. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Originally posted by Oddball_E8: well i imagined something more like this (as for attached air support i mean) this does not take 5.5 minutes from threat identification to apache attack (and they even do an overflight, wich seems to surprise the troops) Maybe it would be different in a really hot conventional type scenario where they can't just hang around wherever they like. Maybe the proximity of air support could be specified in the scenario design? Your video does make me wonder why there are no modelled aircraft in the game (graphically I mean), and no AA of any sort in the game, it would be great to see the helos buzzing around, and not unrealistic. It would also be great to see them blasted from the sky by 30mm AA fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 Originally posted by Flanker15: The air support has to fly to the area first so that's why it takes so long. yeah, but do they have to do it for every attack then? since it takes 5,5 minutes for each attack... so they fly home after each attack? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOG Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Maybe they wait somewhere away between attacks to evade AA fire from enemy. Helos sure seem not accurate enough, especially when targetting tanks. Once saw AH-64 fire all its ammo on a single tank in few strikes. It was attacking generally from two directions and all the ordnance fired from one direction hit an embankment with a road on it. It wasted all its Hellfires that way. When helo attacks a tank for some time (more than one pass in a single mission) its accuracy seems to improve with each pass. Edit: Long waiting time for airstrikes makes tank hunting difficult. When I called Apaches to strike some attacking enemy tanks, tanks managed to drive across almost whole map before helos arrived, and I no longer could see them. [ November 01, 2007, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: TOG ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 yeah... alot needs improvement for air-support... time-to-delivery: if i have air support allotted to me, they are comitted to my units, not just in the area and lets get serious... even IF they fly away to evade AA, they wont fly five minutes away... spotting ability: wow... ive NEVER EVER gotten an apache to fire on infantry... not even infantry walking casually down an open street (or crawling in the desert sant)... ALL my units on the entire map can see them, but the guys in the chopper full of advanced optics juuuuuuust cant seem to locate them (even tho that search area must be pretty narrow thanx to my FO spotting) accuracy: ... whats there to say... IF there are no obstacles in the way they do seem to hit pretty straigt on when targeting a vehicle (although they fire from a pretty low altitude it seems) however, they seem totally oblivious to any kind of cover between them and the target... i mean, come on! if there is a HILL between them and the target they shouldnt be able to see the target and hence not shoot. oh and should the target be amongst plenty of cover (like in a city) in no way, shape or form will the chopper go higher to be able to shoot, but instead just hopes that its weapons will penetrate the surrounding buildings (wich they never do, but thats another rant alltogether) Point target accuracy: if i give point coordinates to an airplane to bomb, it seems they usually miss... pinpoint accuracy my a** 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I think if the Hellfires used in CM:SF had the capability to fly the way they were meant to, there wouldnt be so many accuracy problems. Look at the optional flight trajectories of the Hellfire series of ATGMs on this page. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/agm-114-employ.htm After reviewing them you will notice that none of the optional trajectories are "an arrow straight line" to the target as in CM:SF. If CM:SF Hellfires simulated realistic flight trajectories, I bet all in game "Hellfire retardation" would be corrected. I dont see why it couldnt be done, just make the Hellfire come in at the same angle as the Maverick, problem solved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenowl Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 The time for the apaches is too long. I don't mind the fact it takes 5 minutes for the first strike, but I would like it to take much less time for subsequent strikes. Also I have seen the Apaches select their own targets and take out tanks, but there is no way to adjust fire. This is a bigger deal when the tanks move and they leave the target area. If it is possible I would like to see helicopters as 5 minutes for the first strike and less than a minute for subsequent strikes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 True (regarding possible delays for FIRST strike, with lesser delay for follow-up attacks). Also, the on-station helo's should have a fair bit of autonomy regarding target selection after the initial run. As for fixed wing assets, the old WWII strafing run does have a place, but by far the preferred method is to pickle guided munitions from the mid 20's. Orbit a package around 25,000 feet and drop bombs on request. With that, and a bit of simple physics, the response time could be tightened a bit. Standoff range, glide ratio, initial velocity, acceleration due to gravity, and Cd, all lead to a solution. Of course, that ignores command chain loops. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 In the 'real world' a 5 min turnaround doesn't really sound so bad, especially wih friendly forces so close and the enemy within Grail AA missile range. If you recall Apache cockpit camera footage from the invasion and Gulf War 1 friendly fire concerns had the helo commanders getting verification and asking official permission for every move they made. So the game's Apache may have the enemy in his sights but there'd be alot of radio chatter going on until he finally got the thumbs-up to pull the trigger. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiB Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 All I'd want is the ability to center a strike on a unit and have it move with them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 well, i have some good news boys and girls. dont know if this is common knowledge, but if you use area target with air-support they pick their own targets within that area... basically they work like they did in old combatmission oh, but make sure none of your own troops are in that same area.. cos like i said, they work like they did in old combat mission, wich means lots of friendly fire (not too unrealistic mind you) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Card Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Originally posted by Oddball_E8: ...if you use area target with air-support they pick their own targets within that area......and miss everything in the area, as opposed to just missing the specific unit you targeted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 I recall one 3rd party scenario I was playing Blue but was getting chewed to pieces by my OWN aircover! I cracked open the editor to find a 'conscript' FO had accidentally(?) been assigned. Oh jeez, instead of using a conscript forward air controller you might as well just shoot ourself and get it over with. Less painful that way. A 'crack' FO should be able to drop ordnance into the center of the proverbial pickle barrel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 Originally posted by 'Card: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Oddball_E8: ...if you use area target with air-support they pick their own targets within that area......and miss everything in the area, as opposed to just missing the specific unit you targeted. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Originally posted by Oddball_E8: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 'Card: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Oddball_E8: ...if you use area target with air-support they pick their own targets within that area......and miss everything in the area, as opposed to just missing the specific unit you targeted. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenowl Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The big problem with air support is there is not an ability to adjust fire without cancelling the entire attack. I just can't call to the apaches to move their area attack. 4 minutes is a long time to get an apache attack and in that time th enemy has either moved out of the area of effect or I have to guess where he will be long before the attack comes. Resetting the time counter makes it frustrating for missions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 yeah... i have to agree with omenowl on that one... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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