RPG rounds dud rates/ammo selection

[rudel.dietrich]

I remember in a thread a few months back that Steve stated that in the coding for the game RPGs would have a pretty low damage date due to duds and HE rounds being used instead of AP rounds.

This is a thread to get him to reconsider his stance on the issue.

Now first I want to make it clear.

For Hezbollah and milita units the dud rate and wrong ammo type rate should be somewhat high.

Syrian milita units store their weapons in armories that are poorly kept and mantained and scattered all over the country ready for mobilization.

Many of the rounds there would be in poor shape.

For reserve units the dud rate should be slightly lower.

However as poorly trained as these units are, they are still equiped with both HE and AP rounds and would use the correct ones in the correct situation.

It really does not take alot of brain activity to identify what you are trying to kill and then picking the right rocket for the job.

Even a conscript that has not picked up a rifle in 10 years would use the right round.

The only case in which a unit of reserve quality of higher would use a HE round in a vehicle is if AP rounds are not avaliavbe.

Now going back to my orginal point.

Regular Syrian army units and above should have a pretty low dud rate and always use the right round for the job.

Do not Iraq fool you.

To a certain degree, the Syrian army would know what it would be doing.

A RPG round may not always get past the cage and may not always defeat the ceramic armour.

But the rounds would for the most part detonate as they were supossed too and if avaliavble the round would be a AP round.

If used improperly the casulty rate of a Styrker should be pretty high against the RPG-7v assuming that the firer has the skill to hit the target.

Reserve units should have a few more duds.

Milita units should be a total crap shoot since the dud rate is high and having both types of rounds avaliable and using the right one in the heat of battle are not always guaranteed.

Hezbollah units do not really have the privelege of having the right equipment for the job.

They might be forced to use a HE round and the dud rate should be high since they get their equipment from sources not of the highest quality.

However their accuracy should be pretty good since the baseline Hezbollah fighter is going to be cool under stress and be pretty good at what he does.

That is how I see things.

And I reguard this issue as high imnportence since the basic RPG is possibly the single most important weapon to the Syrians.

[rudel.dietrich]

I add

Most rounds are of somwhat modern design and should have pretty good penetration stats.

Syria also had good stocks of tandem rounds.

I would say 40% or so of AP rounds fired by regular Syrian army units and above should be tandem rounds and have significantly higher penetration stats.

A regular round I would guess has a 50/50 shot at punching a hole in a Styrker assuming it can get past the cage and detonate properly.

A tandem round assuming it can punch through the cage should have a 80-85% chance of punching through the armour

The RPG-18 used by the airborne and some SF units should have a 80% or so chance of punching through.

However since the round is small the damage done should be 25-30% less if penetration does occur

The RPG-29

Well ****, if a Styrker gets hit by that and gets past the cage it would be a act of God if it did not punch through both sides of the vehicle.

I would say a 95%+ chance of penetration and then significant damage upon penetration.

Of course the cage is going to offset therse chances because the round might detonate early.

Bad for the cage but it would allow the vehcile to remain alive.

So to sum it all up.

The RPG should be a deadlier weapon than intended in the hands of certain units.

[ November 20, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[MikeyD]

U.S. army has had good technical data on RPG for three decades now. Their report said at ranges under 150m its basically idiot-proof. Much beyond that the firer's skill level starts to really make a difference. They also mentioned the high dud rate, even way back then.

I think a baseline RPG HEAT round can penetrate something like 350mm and a Stryker's baseline armor is something like 56mm equivalent. How much do you think the coating of ceramic tiles would disrupt the force of the HEAT jet? Can we estimate by half? That's still about 150mm overmatching penetration for the HEAT jet. A Stryker vehicle without a cage would be screwed.

I recall once seeing a 1970's graph showing the reduction in RPG penetration as standoff distance increase. We're not talking a measley two foot standoff like a slat cage. We're talking significant fence-around-vehicle distances before the HEAT jet became ineffective against light armor. Slat cage was designed to be RPG-specific. It doesn't work simply by being a standoff barrier. That means rounds other than the baseline RPG that are fused differently than baseline RPG might (theoretically) be able to get past the cage like it wasn't even there. Luckily in Iraq 99% of the AT weapons available for use against Stryker is oldstyle RPG.

[rudel.dietrich]

Angle of impact is important as well.

If a round hits the hull at a 30 degree angle it essentialy has more armour to burn through before it can do damage.

50% was just a guess of mine covering all angles of impact and no matter where the round struck.

My understanding was that the tiles offered very good protection agasint heat based rounds but suffered against kinetic rounds.

I wonder if it is possible to 'prep' the vehicle by hitting it with gernades and machine gun fire and damage the cage and crack or smash the tiles before firing HEAT rounds at it?

Or are the cage and tiles made to withstand 7.62 and 12.7mm rounds?

I am not talking about penetration, just enough protection to keep the tiles from being cracked or broken and opening holes in the tiles for HEAT rounds.

[hellfish]

I remember reading in that RPG handbook that wind affected the RPGs way more than I would have thought. I don't know how much the LAW or M136 are affected - I'm under the impression that the RPG is more adversely affected by wind that the American weapons.

Also, don't forget that pH doesn't equal pK. A lot of RPGs have hit and penetrated armored vehicles but have done no appreciable damage inside.

[Battlefront.com]

This all sounds about right to me. However, in game terms it is a bit more refined.

The dud rate is based on two factors, as far as I can tell:

1. How long the round has been sitting round.

2. The type of round (some of the old ones were poorly made)

There is also a chance that a round won't perform to its specifications due to either of the two factors just noted. Meaning, the round goes off but not with optimal effect. Against a Stryker this might not matter, but against an Abrams it might.

All other factors don't have anything to do with the round going off or not (i.e. a dud), but rather if the correct round is used for the right target plus aimed well. For this Experience is what matters, not troop type. The thing is that the poorer quality units will have poorer Experience, lower Fitness, and worse Leadership Bonuses. Therefore, they will be of poorer quality but not because of the TO&E they use (same was true for CMx1).

No practical chance of small arms, or even heavy small arms, softening up the slat armor for an RPG. The slat armor is nearly prependicular to the ground. Even a shot from above would make little, to no, impact on the slats. Certainly not enough to make a difference. This means that the tandem rounds will be the most deadly, as well as firing from a higher angle at short range.

Steve

[Aacooper]

Cobra II mentions many instances of RPG's failing to hurt a Bradley or AAV because they were fired too close, and warhead wasn't armed. What is the minimum range, and will that be modeled as a factor of a unit's experience?

[Sixxkiller]

I believe an Egyptian made Cobra has a min range of 200m and a max of 600m. I think other systems arm in less than 100m

[Sixxkiller]

Heres an old site that details RPG's

http://cryptome.org/rpg-guide/rpg-guide.htm

[Sergei]

Wikipedia says Cobra has min 200m and max 1600m. Cobra 2000: min 400m, max 2000m.

[PLM2]

I hear a lot of low quality insurgents forget to do things like arm the rocket

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by PLM2:

I hear a lot of low quality insurgents forget to do things like arm the rocket

Or take up ridiculously exposed fire positions while their buddies are filming them only to be gunned down by machinegun fire...

[civdiv]

I would add that the dud range for RPGs is almost directly tied to the manufacturer. If certain country's indigenious production is included (And I am not sure if Syria has acquired RPG round from this production), they have a very tough chance of even detonating if not struck at close to 90 degrees. The probability of detonation of ANY RPG round has more to due with the angle of impact rather than manufacturing (Due to problems with design). There are several entire production runs of PRGs that simply won't detonate if not struck close to 90 degrees. And those are mostly limited to 'in theater' production rather than that produced in the Eastern Bloc.

At Nasiriyah I recall literally dozens of RPG rounds that failed to detonate; they were just rolling down the road between vehicles. They would literally come spinning down the street, bounce off someting, and skittering between our vehicles and even between our legs.

It was one of those things where they were so ineffective that you would almost disregard them, and then they would get a very rare solid hit with catastrophic results.

civdiv

[Sixxkiller]

Ya I remember one time where one haji got one off at the same time someone marked one into his head. The rocket impacted above our position on a rock wall and it bounced off and down the middle of the path for what seemed like forever. Couldnt help but watch it until it stopped. I remember thinking it would have been better if he had just thrown it at us.

[MoNuckah]

Damn.

[John Kettler]

civdiv and Sixxkiller,

That would be incredible game chrome, especially if you never knew when the things might go off. Definitely not interested in real life version, though.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Aacooper]

Oh, by "Cobra II" I meant the book, not a weapon system. One description of a firefight the Marines got into mentions 33 RPG hits, and they lost one tank, and 3-4 AAV's. It's a bit surprising when the RPG can theoretically penetrate 350mm of armor.

[Sergei]

Then, in reference to your earlier note that RPG's seemed to fail to detonate due to being fired too close, I wonder if RPG-7 really has a minimum range in reality. I know that for the French 112mm APILAS the minimum is ~20m, and I would suspect that RPG being of lower calibre there's no 'safety minimum range'.

[Battlefront.com]

Arming distance is 5m. That's a damned short distance if you actually hit something at that range!

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Egad! A little less and they could use lunge mines instead. Had no idea it was that short!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Scott B]

I can confirm a number of anecdotes to the effect that in the early part of the war, Iraqis often failed to remember to arm their RPG rounds. In addition, the weapon quality was quite low - bent sights, and rounds that would corkscrew out of control were also noted.

Troop quality would be a key issue there. I don't know if this is still an ongoing problem for the insurgents in Iraq. With regard to the original post, I would be extremely hesitant about suggesting Hezbollah makes these kinds of mistakes based on their performance last Summer and everything I've read since.