How much will modules cover?

[vincere]

The thread in CMBB forum 'How long until CMBB is replaced?' has got me wondering how much of a WWII theatre will a game with the anticipated module build up to cover?

Is it likely that a CMx2 Barbarossa game would build up with modules to cover most of the theatre for the whole war?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by vincere:

Is it likely that a CMx2 Barbarossa game would build up with modules to cover most of the theatre for the whole war?

I doubt that even BFC knows the precise answer to that. But just going on what has been said up until now, I would expect something along the following lines: Operation Bagration. The first game might cover the initial break in to the German lines around, say, Vitebsk. The next module might then cover the push to Minsk. The one after that might take us to Vilnius or Kaunus. And so forth. That would be a more or less linear chronological development. Alternatively, BFC might choose a much narrower slice of time, say a week, but each module would cover a different sector of the front and different armies.

Michael

[Schrullenhaft]

I somewhat doubt that BFC is going to get that detailed/specific in its modules ("BFC might choose a much narrower slice of time, say a week.."). My assumption is that modules will cover a specific but broader period of time, such as all of Operation Bagration, Stalingrad, Kursk, etc. (with limitations on as to how broad the coverage is).

The idea primarily is to limit the number of unique vehicles, TO&Es and models/textures. Working with the Operation Bagration example you would get textures and scenery for the summer of '44 Eastern Europe/Western USSR (Army Group Center area of ops). The units and vehicles present would be limited to those that may have participated in the battles on that part of the Eastern Front. This will allow for a shorter time of development since there are far fewer unique vehicles, units and scenery. With the limited number of vehicles/scenery more time can be spent on the models/textures to be more detailed (a necessity) and the scenery to be more accurate and/or region specific.

So you most likely wouldn't be left with just simulating the approach to Minsk in a module, but almost any action that may have taken place in the area of Op Bagration/Army Group Center. Module expansions after that may cover Fall of Berlin ('45 on Eastern Front), Kursk '43 (summer '43 in Army Group South), Stalingrad (Soviet/German-only ops in or near the city), etc. The most recognizable and popular actions would probably be seen as modules. One of the big questions (which BFC may not quite know at this point either) is whether these modules will just "plug in" to the main title and offer all of the units, vehicles, etc. to be used in the same manner or if the module will be more 'stand alone' in nature (possibly including everything in the 'mother module' into this installment).

At least this is the way I see how things may develop for CMx2 WWII titles/modules (broader, campaign specific modules rather than a solitary, specific battle). Unfortunately I also get the impression that not all of CMBB would eventually be covered by modules; unless BFC outsourced some modules to dedicated fan/developer groups - which hasn't been a strong desire for them in the past. I generally forsee them doing a main title (such as CMSF) and then doing one or two modules for it (if sales and/or interest pushes for it) before proceeding to the next different theatre/era. If BFC could somehow manage to have outside fan/developer groups make more modules for cetain titles, then it may be possible to see much more coverage for certain theatres than BFC may have been willing to spend as much time and resources on. However supporting these fan/developer groups (development time, developer support, QA, etc.) takes time and resources that BFC may not be able to accomodate.

[ August 08, 2006, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[C'Rogers]

I actually asked this same question a long time back.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000562;p=2

Steve posts a variety of replies starting at the bottom of the first page.

Most relevant parts to your question.

I really am not sure why this concept is so hard for most of you to grasp. I think it must be because we've taught you to think in terms of EVERYTHING (and more) delivered all at once. As stated, that will never happen again.

Basically, the Combat Mission series will never again, even with modules, have a complete series that rivals CM:BB in scope (mutliple years, multiple areas, multiple nationalities will not be done).

In reply to Emrys I also think you are making the scope too narrow based on this quote from Steve in the same thread.

A Title is a major theater and/or setting. It is not a minor variation on theme. That is what Modules are for. This means you might see a Western Front Title, an Eastern Front Title, a Space Lobster Title, an American Civil War Title, etc. etc. You will NOT see an Eastern Front Part 1 Title, an Eastern Front Part 2 Title, etc.

I think the module system is an interesting marketing idea and will change after a couple releases. It will probably give a much better idea to them of what their consumers want by what they pay for, not just what the hear from the forums.

For example if they release a module that allows the use of Finnish troops and it sells 1,000 copies, and then release a Marine module that sells 20,000; they know where to put their work in the future. Also if they release one module that adds units that sells ok, and the next module adds new terrains and weather and that sells great, I think future games you would see more modules adding terrains and not units.

[Battlefront.com]

Schrullenhaft pays attention in class. Gold Star for him

Steve

[vincere]

Ok, thanks all for your interpretation and confirmation that Schrullenhaft hit the nail.

[Battlefront.com]

C'Rogers,

I think the module system is an interesting marketing idea and will change after a couple releases. It will probably give a much better idea to them of what their consumers want by what they pay for, not just what the hear from the forums.

It won't change The reason is we aren't doing it for marketing reasons, but for labor reasons. We can't spend as much time on single games as we have in the past. It simply wasn't worth it. What I mean by that is we probably would have sold exactly the same number of CMBB units if we had only included the Germans and the Russians for, let's say, 1944 and 1945. Yet to put all that extra stuff in we probably had to go without eating for 6-8 months. So better to release and eat then release a bit more later on if we think there is a reason to do it.

Due to the sophistication and detail of the new CMx2 engine it is also very time consuming to do seemingly smaller amounts of stuff. For example, we've had to dig up maybe 20 times more data on an Abrams than we did a CMx1 Sherman. More coding needs to be done to get the tracks and roadwheels to conform to terrain (which it does very nicely, I must say ), more artwork for all the details, and more issues with it interacting with the rest of the sim.

In short, although we are not offering you guys as many things per Title, each thing within the Title is sooooo much more detailed. This is the depth vs. breadth strategy I've discussed before. It isn't possible (time, energy, finances, etc.) to have both.

Steve

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

This is the depth vs. breadth strategy I've discussed before. [/QB]

I like breadths, he said with a lisp.

(WIMP! I bet you guys couldn't do another CMBB even if you wanted too! Come on, you don't need to eat for a year! Buy a crate of mac and cheese and you're all set! Dammmmmit, I want Romanian armour and Italian Infantry! I want the Blue Division and Yugoslavian Partisans! I want my PPD40s, I want my NKVD! At least give me some obscure stuff that I have no clue about and will probably never use! )

[Battlefront.com]

J Ruddy,

I bet you guys couldn't do another CMBB even if you wanted too!

You're correct. The casualties suffered from husbandicide (the act of a wife killing her husband after promises of "it will never happen again) would quickly take a toll on the development schedule. Remember, all Charles' wife has to do us pour some Drain-O into the jar and we've lost our programmer

Steve

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Steve posted,

“In short, although we are not offering you guys as many things per Title, each thing within the Title is sooooo much more detailed. This is the depth vs. breadth strategy I've discussed before. It isn't possible (time, energy, finances, etc.) to have both.”

I very much look forward to more detail. This is strange coming form me in that I am one of those least interested in graphics quality. Do not get me wrong, very high quality graphics will be fin, and if they are to be there anyway I too will appreciate them.

However… having more time and place specific graphics and modeling, even if it were to have been with CMX1 graphics, will be a huge plus. By this I mean that if it is to be a Korsun Pocket Feb’44 game or module I look forward to all the graphics being consistent with each other. For example the weathering on all the AFVs and guns being consistent with each other and the time and place.

As long as there is still to be a scenario editor, even if not a campaign editor, then more specific games and modules is a very good thing .

One qualification, well more wish than a qualification , is that once a WWII title is produced BFC go on producing modules for it even after they have moved on to another title. The reason is that I fear quite a number of their titles will not be on my wish list. I will no doubt buy all of them to see what BFC are up to… but with titles other than WWII, and to some extent contemporary, my heart will not really be in it.

Once a WWII North West Europe and then an Eastern Front game are out I will be keeping my figures crossed that there will be the odd module for both for years to come .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Kip,

The detail in the visuals is a time consuming issue for sure, but it is also the simulated details that chew up resources. In CMx1 the data for a tank might be like a long paragraph. The data for the same tank in CMx2 is a few pages. Some of that data is needed for visuals, but much of it isn't. Other things like having to note the weight of every individual item a soldier carries, which soldiers carry what stuff, etc. also takes up time. Coding to allow for leader replacement, chains of command, and other stuff like that, of course, takes up development time too. So on and so forth.

Yes, there is an Editor in CMx2. Overall it is 100 times better than the one in CMx1, though probably 1/2 of what I would like it to be in a perfect world. But I'm happy with 50x improvement

The new development strategy we have allows us to continue making Modules for previous Titles even though we've moved onto new Titles.

Hope that helps!

Steves

[kipanderson]

Steve,

All sounds great… just the job.

I hate to sound like a mindless fan… but I am

Very good news to hear that once a WWII title is released modules are likely to continue after you guys move on to another subject with new titles.

Thanks,

All the best,

Kip.

[WineCape]

And if your supplies have dried up, just let me know. Drain-O is a no-no.

[vincere]

The new development strategy we have allows us to continue making Modules for previous Titles even though we've moved onto new Titles.

Yep, that's very promising.

[mav1]

Will there be an editor for the campaign? If not why not?

[Sergei]

How much will modules cost, or will that vary based on their features?

[DavidFields]

I can see why Battlefront is making the change.

A couple of years ago I bought CMBO. After playing a few scenarios, I decided to play them in historical order starting with June 1944.

I am still in June 44, just past "Sherbroke Fusiliers".

Last month, I finally broke down and bought CMBB/CMAK. Decided to play in historical order again. Started with Crete, then saw there were early Italian scenarios.

If I kept this up, I should be finished with all the scenarios/operations by.....maybe sometime in 2010--just the ones on the disk. I get anxious just thinking about all the great scenarios that, practically, I will not get to.

So, 4 years of entertainment for.....less than I pay for one night out on sushi and martinis.

My solid guess is that Battlefront does not want me, indeed can't survive, with me getting off that cheaply.

Meanwhile, my son pays monthly for Everquest II, or similar. I have always marveled how his PS-2 games, which he can get about 2 or 3 a holiday, cost so much more than my stuff.

Ever thought of a subscription "Module of the Season"? Say, $200 a year. Would give you all a solid deadline, and would give something new to your gamers every three months. Despite the moaning on the boards--about how there is not enough material in the new module, just a little something new in your mailbox every three months would be a treat. People would give it as a gift--or get people to give it to them as a gift. You might find some people enjoy looking at the new doo-dads (equipment, uniforms, terrain) as actually play the scenarios.

I think this is one of the many cases where what people say they want and will pay for may differ from reality (like with air flight, and nutritious food at fast food restaurants).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Rankorian:

I can see why Battlefront is making the change.

A couple of years ago I bought CMBO. After playing a few scenarios, I decided to play them in historical order starting with June 1944.

I am still in June 44, just past "Sherbrooke Fusiliers"..

And see, by taking their time and researching little bits, they would realize that it is actually "The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment", not "Sherbrooke Fusiliers". Win-Win for detail hounds.

[Battlefront.com]

No idea on cost, though it will be significantly less for Module vs. a Title.

Steve